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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2021, 01:22 
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admin wrote:
There is a clear pattern that could look like YMDDNNNN indeed, but it's not the only one.


Hello Julien, you gave me some thoughts and went through my own database and found the following : (there are certainly more but I haven't yet documented all my mint marks in my collection...)

YMddxxxx : Pioneer US & JP
ddYMxxxx : Pioneer US & JP
xxxxMYdd : Pioneer US & JP (Nov 1997 - Dec 2001)
xxxxddMY : Pioneer JP (2002)

xxxx = clearly the run number (so max 10000 per day)

take the xxxxMYdd example : (I used some late LaserJukes made by Pioneer JP, as they have the coding SS CC MM, so I can took Month MM as ref
00181A21 => January 21st 2000
03731B27 => November 27th 2000
02506C25 => June 25th 2001
0280253E => March 25th 2002

Take now
Virus (1999) [PILF-2805]
PILF-2805-A01-P 00651A30 January 30th 2000
PILF-2805-B02-P 00371A30 January 30th 2000

I found series start with 1A January 2000,..., 9A September, 0A October, 1B November, 2B December and 1C for January 2001,...
Try this with American Beauty (1999) [PILF-2856] or other PILF-28xx

In 1997 Pioneer JP used format xxxxMYdd D and E, in 1998 F and G, in 1999 H and I, in 2000 A and B, in 2001 C and D, in 2002 E.

Pioneer US used the same way :
e.g. 1996 B1ddxxxx till C2ddxxx, 1997 D1ddxxxx till dd2Axxxx [here they did a format change], 1998 dd1Bxxxx till dd2Cxxxx, 1999 dd1Dxxxx till dd2Exxxx

Than take ddMYxxxx
Virus (1999) [LD 83264 WS]
59-670A1-003 MADE IN USA CAPVMI 306D0857 June 30th 1999
59-670B1-010 MADE IN USA CAPVMI 077D0793 July 7th 1999

Need to do more checks, the others are clearly also a Year / Month combinations

Lets continue the decoding, hope it helps....

Idea for Julien as you have dB access, you could add these serial numbers to the pioneer us mint list, you could find the pattern for the us pressing the fastest, I will give it a go for the other series using data I have...

Edwin
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2021, 17:09 
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Did further checks I now have the full 1990 - 2002 for Pioneer JP and 1990 - 1999 for Pioneer US - see attachment

>>> I checked many discs - I am not responsible for mistakes <<<

I have found 1 series I could not yet map : Pioneer JP PAL disc : I7ddxxxx > will check the PAL discs may be they used separate serial codes from JP market.


Attachments:
PioneerSerialcodes.jpg
PioneerSerialcodes.jpg [ 315.16 KiB | Viewed 257 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2021, 17:55 
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Thank you Edwin. The attachment you posted matches the two letter variations in the mint marks I posted earlier. That would mean Cool World (1992) [LV 32356-WS] was manufactured from at least March 1993 to November 1993. Additionally, Clear and Present Danger (1994) [LV 32463-2WS] from at least December 1994 to April 1995.

I have been discussing manufacturing with a former Technidisc employee (I will post on this once I have all of it organized). It seems their process was based on Pioneer's, and Technidisc would store "metal" discs (I believe these would be the mothers) in special containers in a library for later runs. Pioneer might have done the same, allowing for new pressings months later without having to create a new master.
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 13:50 
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All,

made mistake in the Pioneer JP 1999 (the H comes before the I ;) ), corrected view attached

Added now as of 1987

I am still struggling with Pioneer JP end 1994 (H) and begin of 1996 (I), this as I can find 2 versions ...

Br, Edwin


Attachments:
PioneerSN v2.JPG
PioneerSN v2.JPG [ 236.52 KiB | Viewed 223 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 17:25 
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edwin240170 wrote:
made mistake in the Pioneer JP 1999 (the H comes before the I ;) ), corrected view attached


Based on Edwin's XLS files I tried to convert the logic for Pioneer USA + Japan to make the conversion automatic:

https://www.lddb.com/mint-o-matic.php

Examples:

D3011670 => 01 March 1997
00681A21 => 21 January 2000
05011I25 => 25 November 1999
229D0074 => 22 September 1999
02661I01 => 01 November 1999
02383H03 => 03 March 1999

Attachment:
mintomatic.png
mintomatic.png [ 5.84 KiB | Viewed 212 times ]


Feel free to try more (from 1987 to 2002) see if there are some bugs left.

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 07 Feb 2021, 21:16 
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Thank you for adding that.

So with this pinned down, can we now speculate on the amount of discs produced? Do serials run up all the way to xxxx9999?

At a glance, it seems 59-068A1-012 223D0835 could mean 100,000+ Titanic (1997) [LV334812-WSDTS] were manufactured. That seems way too high to me. So either pressings were not sequential (1 to 12) for that release or they stopped at lower runs per whatever 12 represents (I'm still thinking stamper).
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 03:32 
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cplusplus wrote:
Do serials run up all the way to xxxx9999? 59-068A1-012 223D0835 could mean 100,000+


Hello c++

This code captures up to 10.000 / day max
This does not mean 10.000 of the same title (I checked my collection and I found 4 different karaoke titles with same day stamp)

So in your example, they could have run a batch of 1.000 Pcs and made other titles same day.

Hope this helps,

Br Edwin
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 03:44 
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All,

Now I tried 1998 and 1997 Mitsubish series :roll: I based myself on movies or titles I am sure of to be released in that year...

I found this SYMMxxxxx

S = A or B
Y = 7 / 8 (so last number of year)
MM = 0A for January,... 0J for October, 1A for November and 1B for December
xxxxx = I think this is just a SN, as I can't find any pattern so far

You can have A and B sides with same YMMxxxxx

I tried a single 1994 title and it worked fine there as well

Regards Edwin
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 03:45 
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Best we could do is to harvest multiple versions of the stamped marks to get an estimate of when the production batch started and ended.

Or to see if a title was repressed under the same reference/master, but way later than the original release.

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 03:53 
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edwin240170 wrote:
Now I tried 1998 and 1997 Mitsubish series :roll: I based myself on movies or titles I am sure of to be released in that year...

I found this SYMMxxxxx


Seems to work fine:

Hard Rain (1998) [TWLD-1002]
A90C07636 => 07? March 1999

Could 07 be the day?

Magic Knight Rayearth: OVA vol.1 (1997) [POLV-3181]
A70G12122 => July 1997

Magic Knight Rayearth: OVA vol.3 (1997) [POLV-3183]
A71A06981 => October 1997

Marc Almond: Memorabilia - The Video Singles (1991) [VALP-3264]
A10G00817 => July 1991

Mark Knopfler: Night in London (1996) [POLS-1019]
A60F0345 => June 1996

Mask of Zorro, The (1998) [LLD-26102]
A90B01102 => February 1999

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 04:06 
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Hello Julien

A71A06981 => October 1997

1A = November (October is 0J e.g Evil Dead, The (1981) [EE7263])

I found some very low xxxxx numbers like 00014 to high 14358

Also I found some titles in 1998 for older releases I doubt the entry is correct Desert Vision (1987) [ID8553MM]
Is this really a 1998 release? SN tells March 1992
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 04:08 
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edwin240170 wrote:
Is this really a 1998 release? SN tells March 1992


From the early databases I piggybacked on, the "release" date would more often than not be the date of the most recent repricing.

Could be a 1992 release priced-down in 1998.

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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Technidisc Mint Marks
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 04:33 
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admin wrote:
Best we could do is to harvest multiple versions of the stamped marks to get an estimate of when the production batch started and ended.


I have 2 copies of Terminator, The (1984) [ID2940NSB]
Released 22/03/1995

Database shows
ID2940NSB A 08 M A80J02317 October 1998
ID2940NSB B 18 M B80J00239 October 1998

My copies
B 04 M B50Bxxxxx February 1995 so looks like the initial pressing for release date
B 07 M B60Axxxxx January 1996
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Mint Marks
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2021, 15:26 
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Now we have found the Pioneer JP, US and Mitsubishi its time to get going on Kuraray ...

This is a tricky one, what I have found so far :
I started to check 1999 releases only - you have to find some pattern first - (I can already tell you for other years it is different!)
> A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, J, K always is the 4th character
> L, M, N, P, Q, R, S, T, V, W always is the 2nd character
> In most of the cases the 1st digit is the same on Side A and B
> First digit runs from 0 to 9 - looking at the release dates, it looks like months - not sure yet how Nov and Dec are handled.
> What is really tricky is the selection of the Characters and what is used on both sides, sometimes it is the same (both 2nd, both 4th) other times it is different.
> Maybe Kuraray didnt use a "unique" code like Pioneer and Mitsubishi and they have a multitude in parallel running ...

What I have seen from a quick check in 1997 : the characters which were in 1999 the 4th digit, are now 2nd digit (need to check if this applies to all), also I found the letter "Z" one I havent found in 1999 (yet)

In order to get better view on pattern, I need more time and more data, especially as Kuraray uses a more complicated coding.

Br, Edwin
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Mint Marks
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 00:57 
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Kuraray is interesting indeed. Hope this helps:

Toy Story (1995) [6703 AS]

30-10-96 release

6703AS-A01-K 914G8063
6703AS-A10-K 918A3528
6703AS-A14-K 785C0024

6703AS-B03-K 9M872069
6703AS-B09-K 9M199974
6703AS-B13-K 785D0039
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Mint Marks
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2021, 02:15 
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edwin240170 wrote:
I found the letter "Z"

Maybe just a "2"?

It seems to me that the letterset Kuraray used deliberately skipped ambiguous characters. (I/1, O/0, U/0)
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Mint Marks
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 10:57 
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Kuraray :
> 3913 Mint marks in LDDB with a release date
> 21 duplicates >> I assume these are "mistakes"
> With the above I assume the Kuraray Mint marks must be unique
> Now the difficult part, find the format

> Letter can be the 1st (204) 2nd (2510) or the 4th (1199) => there is no order, mixed on side A and B on disc, used all over the years
> Letter : A <> Z is used, also here all mixed - A (367) and B (350) are used the most, where T (119) and V (111) are the less, but it is very irregular
Same releases can have complete different Letters used or Letter order used
In LDDB there are more with Mint Marks, like 2 Unlimited: Hits Unlimited - The Videos (1996) [L931208], which uses a Z, as I have this title myself a comparison :
L931208-A05-J 1Z190258 (LDDB) A05 1Z580081 (my ld)
L931208-B01-J 1Z280303 (LDDB) B02 1Z190136 (my ld)

Other example Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me (1999) [ID5956LI]
ID5956LI-A02-K 021C0411 (LDDB) A02 0N821435 (my ld)
ID5956LI-B02-K 021D0409 (LDDB) B01 020B1435 (my ld)

Other example Wild Wild West (1999) [17794]
17794-A06-K 2L480339 (LDDB) A06 249C0021 & A06 2L480657 (my ld)
17794-B03-K 2T480340 (LDDB) B03 2T482143 & B03 2T480608 (my ld)

Other examples X-Files: Fallen Angel/Eve (1993) [0893785]
0893785-A01-K 3L101424 A07 4N051289
0893785-B05-K 313B1063 B08 M4960541

Continuing the checks as making conclusions is too early ...

Br, Edwin
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Mint Marks
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 11:50 
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Nippon Columbia:

1996 : 1F, 2F, 3F, 4F, 5F, 6F, 7F, 8F, 9F, 0F, 1G, 2G
1997 : 1H, 2H, 3H, 4H, 5H, 6H, 7H, 8H, 9H, 0H, 1J, 2J
1998 : 1K, 2K, 3K, 4K, 5K, 6K, 7K, 8K, 9K, 0K, 1A, 2A
1999 : 1B, 2B, 3B, 4B, 5B, 6B, 7B, 8B, 9B, 0B, 1C, 2C
2000 : 1D, 2D, 3D, ....

1st digit is like Pioneer the month
2nd digit is like Pioneer

I think the overal format is MLxxxxxx
M = month
L = Letter

I doubt day is in the format, I only own 4 Nippon Columbia releases so limited possibilties to counter check, and none which I own have a Mint mark in LDDB.
Example I own : Wonderwall (1968) [COLM-6200]
My copy has 1K320010 and 1K330237

Br, Edwin
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Mint Marks
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 18:08 
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I found what appears to be an anomaly when checking the Pioneer USA mint markings for She's So Fine (1985) [Z0089].

The markings on Side A make perfect sense because I'd expect this to be a 1989 pressing, based on the disc label and spine reference etc.

Here's Side A (label Side 2):

23-003A1-04 15G10403

Image

However the markings for Side B, when entered into mint-o-matic, produce a date of August 1992. It seems impossible that a 1992 disc side would be paired with a 1989 pressing, particularly since Image Entertainment were no longer using white disc labels in '92 and switched to LaserDisc Entertainment labels by October 1991.

Side B markings appear to be:

23-003B1-05 10C80083

Image

The character after C looks like an upside down '8' when compared with the rest of the number. I don't think the C is a misprinted G either.

Any thoughts on this? Is it simply an error by Pioneer or am I missing something here?
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 Post subject: Re: Manufacturing Dates in Mint Marks
PostPosted: 21 Feb 2021, 18:51 
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Interesting. Given that the first "8" is upside down, I would say this was a mishap.
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