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Laserdisc Reboot Debate
https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=9564		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  tsugrad_2013 [ 04 Jan 2021, 02:47 ]
Post subject:  Laserdisc Reboot Debate
Should there be a laserdisc reboot like companies have done with classic car body styles, retro video game consoles, flip phones, etc? Should there be a modernized version of laserdiscs with a retro look and feel? Maybe being able to use your smart phone for a remote, better picture quality, release of newer titles, etc. Or would it lose its cool factor through a reboot? What features would you want if they did do a reboot?
Author:  tsugrad_2013 [ 04 Jan 2021, 02:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
I'd honestly be extremely disappointed if Good Burger wasn't the first title to be re-released.
Author:  takeshi666 [ 04 Jan 2021, 03:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
It's extremely unlikely, if only because when you consider all the other retro format revival, they've had an absolutely enormous market penetration in their heyday. Even when Laserdisc was the cinemaphile format, it still had a comparatively low market penetration - about 2% of households in the US - and almost that whole crowd have moved on to newer formats.

Even if they did decide to go insane and make a new player, it'd probably be better in terms of technology and a lot worse in terms of build quality. Hell, they still make compact cassette players but none of them have dolby noise reduction that'd actually make it worthwhile. And the mechanics of vinyl are so simple that even the most poor nation in the world probably has some kind of a record industry since both the turntables and the discs are cheap - laserdisc has none of that.
Author:  tsugrad_2013 [ 04 Jan 2021, 03:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
takeshi666 wrote:
It's extremely unlikely, if only because when you consider all the other retro format revival, they've had an absolutely enormous market penetration in their heyday. Even when Laserdisc was the cinemaphile format, it still had a comparatively low market penetration - about 2% of households in the US - and almost that whole crowd have moved on to newer formats.

Even if they did decide to go insane and make a new player, it'd probably be better in terms of technology and a lot worse in terms of build quality. Hell, they still make compact cassette players but none of them have dolby noise reduction that'd actually make it worthwhile. And the mechanics of vinyl are so simple that even the most poor nation in the world probably has some kind of a record industry since both the turntables and the discs are cheap - laserdisc has none of that.

I don't think the previous market would have as big of an impact on a reboot. It would of course have laserdisc fans that would buy it but there's also this fascination that kids currently have with the 90s. If they marketed it to that type of crowd while also playing on the nostalgia factor it could possibly add to the number of people interested in buying it. I'm not saying it would be a massive mainstream success but there would definitely be a market for it.
Author:  admin [ 04 Jan 2021, 04:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
Already done!

https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?p=118467#p118467

Julien
Author:  cplusplus [ 04 Jan 2021, 17:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
No need for new players. There are several upgrade kits for older analog audio equipment that are complete board replacements, redesigns, etc. Same could be done for LD hardware.

As for the discs themselves, zero chance but it is fun to speculate. Might could hack something together using CDs, but Lord of the Rings would be on about 46 sides.
Author:  rein-o [ 04 Jan 2021, 17:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
Isn't DVD and Bluray a modernized version of LD??? its LD on a CD sized disc?
Author:  cplusplus [ 04 Jan 2021, 18:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
rein-o wrote:
Isn't DVD and Bluray a modernized version of LD??? its LD on a CD sized disc?

:lol: Dang it, they beat us to it.

For the specifics: I mean writing ld-encode from https://github.com/happycube/ld-decode and using it to create a new LaserVision signal that could then be recorded onto a CD-R using a modified CD drive. Might could get up to 10 minutes per disc if you glued CDs together. I assume you would need to figure out the right amount of padding to go in between the two halves so you don't have to adjust Side B focus.

So now we are down to Lord of the Rings on only 23 CDs!
Author:  rcarlson [ 04 Jan 2021, 18:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
While we're talking pipe dreams, what I'd be interested in is what you could do with a 12-inch analog video format that uses a violet laser like blu-ray. Laserdisc-quality with longer playtime? Progressive video? Or maybe go digital instead and allow for such a high capacity that there's no excuse to compress away grain. I can almost see that as a legit modern videophile/collector's option. It'll never happen, of course.
Author:  je280 [ 04 Jan 2021, 18:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
rcarlson wrote:
It'll never happen, of course.


That's true. :(
Author:  rein-o [ 04 Jan 2021, 22:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
rcarlson wrote:
what I'd be interested in is what you could do with a 12-inch analog video format that uses a violet laser like blu-ray.


Isn't that muse????

May not be the color laser you are looking for but its the highest def on LD you can get with analog.
Author:  rcarlson [ 04 Jan 2021, 22:57 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
rein-o wrote:
rcarlson wrote:
what I'd be interested in is what you could do with a 12-inch analog video format that uses a violet laser like blu-ray.


Isn't that muse????

May not be the color laser you are looking for but its the highest def on LD you can get with analog.

It's not MUSE because the color makes all the difference; narrower wavelengths mean tighter grooves and smaller pits. That's why a single-layer blu-ray holds five times the capacity of a single-layer DVD. And yes, I know that MUSE is the highest definition that has ever been commercially available on a 12-inch format; I'm just wondering aloud about what might have been with a hypothetical modern laserdisc successor, emphasis on "hypothetical."
Author:  cplusplus [ 05 Jan 2021, 00:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
If memory serves me correct, laserdisc pits were written with a 488nm laser which is smaller than those found in DVD players.
Author:  rcarlson [ 05 Jan 2021, 01:24 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
cplusplus wrote:
If memory serves me correct, laserdisc pits were written with a 488nm laser which is smaller than those found in DVD players.

I believe that's correct, yes, but wouldn't the wavelength of the intended read laser (infrared) still be a limiting factor on the density of the pit placement during writing? I'm pretty sure that there are still more pits per unit area on a DVD for this reason.
Author:  cplusplus [ 05 Jan 2021, 16:58 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
rcarlson wrote:
wouldn't the wavelength of the intended read laser (infrared) still be a limiting factor on the density of the pit placement during writing?

I'm not sure. I feel they would have just used an infrared laser in that case, but I might not be thinking about this the correct way. I do know that the Ar laser was supposedly 200MW which is quite substantial.

Interesting comparison of track pitch:
LD: 1.4 to 2 microns
VCD: 1.6 microns
DVD: 0.74 microns
BR: 0.32 microns
Author:  9954tony [ 05 Jan 2021, 21:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
The original spec used an HeNe laser that is an even shorter wavelength than a DVD laser: HeNe=632 DVD=650nm. However, the aperture of the lens was also different (larger?). Interestingly to note: The original spot size of the HeNe LD player was smaller (1.5micrometers) than the later IR player spot size (1.6~1.7micrometers). However, the circuitry after the laser pickup in the HeNe players limits frequency response ( and therefore, ultimately, resolution).

This picture, is from the Pioneer Tuning Fork series describing the early HeNe LD spec (1.5micrometer spot size):
Image

You can see from this diagram, that the pits/lands sizes are very small, nearly as small as a DVD, much bigger than a CD, but the track pitch is large, nearly the same as a CD. This works because of the analog nature of LD, the signal is interpreted as an RF signal, so the pits/lands being close together still generates a fluctuating waveform. However, the large spot size of the LD player makes this waveform "less than perfect", and so the reproduced image is not of the same fidelity as the master (lower signal to noise ratio).
Author:  happycube [ 08 Feb 2021, 08:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
Ran some numbers yesterday, and you can probably fit 2 hours of 10-bit uncompressed (better than an X0!) composite video sans blank areas with PCM sound onto a 128GB microSD card that retails for ~$20, which is about what a 2-sided CLV disk cost in the late 90's, sans inflation.

And you can get a 256GB card that'll fit a compressed RF capture of said 2-sided CLV disk for $35, and have enough room left over for a lightly compressed decode of it ;)

I guess with an ld-encode and a very heavily modified blu-ray burner and an incredible amount of time you could build a CAV 'laserdisc' out of that equipment, but the quality would almost certainly not be better than the 128GB microSD card, and a player for *that* could be built for <$100 relatively easily.
Author:  teddanson [ 08 Feb 2021, 10:40 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
That's kind of what I was hoping Domesday/LDEncode would do for LD, spur on development of some sort of optical reader replacement. Similar to what consoles are experiencing at the moment, and a little akin to the Daphne project.

It would be lovely to envision a replacement for the disc mechanism that could read either images directly from a fast SD card or USB 3.0 stick, or better yet, be able to play back LD images from a network share or external storage device. It's a lot of effort to go to in order to play back media on the original device, when it comes to LD in this case. That said, it would be great to keep the original hardware up and running, with authentic playback ability, settings, jog wheel and so on long after key components for repairs have been completely depleted.

Still, it's brilliant work you guys are doing happycube. Long may it prosper and all the very best with it. :clap: :thumbup:
Author:  cplusplus [ 09 Feb 2021, 02:04 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
Maybe I'm just a simpleton, but as soon as the absurd big shiny discs are divorced from the process, I lose interest.

Domesday and ld-decode are absolutely critical projects for preservation, but I would not go to that extent for Speed (1994) [8638-85].
Author:  admin [ 09 Feb 2021, 02:28 ]
Post subject:  Re: Laserdisc Reboot Debate
cplusplus wrote:
Domesday and ld-decode are absolutely critical projects for preservation, but I would not go to that extent for Speed (1994) [8638-85].


Why would you skip on such a masterpiece???

Oh wait... there's a 4K UHD BD coming. Nevermind!

https://www.blu-ray.com/movies/Speed-4K-Blu-ray/285552/

Julien
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