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 Post subject: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2014, 08:33 
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Hey all,

I've been having some enigmatic issues, and this seems like a good place to find additional information, or at least sympathetic ears.

So I've been trying to upgrade to a new 9.1 AV receiver. I've been using a Pioneer Elite VSX-32 for years without problems, but modern AVRs seem to have issues handling analogue video signals from older devices, so that they don't work properly. Specifically, last year I picked up (and returned) a Pioneer Elite SC-77, and now I have a Marantz SC-7009 that is exhibiting the same behavior, albeit to a lesser (and perhaps tolerable) degree.

This behavior is that the AVR drops the input signal, as if it can't see it, once the movie starts playing. The problem with the PE SC-77 extended to several older devices, such as vintage video game consoles or computers. Sometimes I could get the AVR to see the signal by toggling it to look specifically at the analogue input, but sometimes that wouldn't work, and likewise I could sometimes get it to work by unplugging and re-plugging the video cable from the LD player, which obviously wasn't a sustainable solution.

The Marantz appears to work with all of my old composite-video devices, though it appears to dislike the LD player in the way the PE model did. I can see some of the HUD info from the LD player (such as the "PLAY" in the upper corner), and can see the first second or two of dark screen from the LD content, but then dropout. I get audio, but no picture. The TV complains about no signal, unless I switch to another input and then switch back, whence everything is fine again. Even if I have the AVR configured to look solely at the analogue input, this problem occurs, so it's probably not a problem with the auto-signal selector.

If I had to guess to the root cause of the problem, these modern AVRs have some additional logic so that if the signal is interrupted (i.e., if you press 'pause' on the player), the screen will show you an image from where it was paused, even if the player is providing no such image. I've seen the AVR have issues with the HUD info from the player, where sometimes it doesn't show up, so this is making me suspicious. Other people on other fora (such as avsforum) reported similar issues, so it appears that this isn't just me.

(If it helps, my LD player is a McIntosh MLD7020 (i.e., a Pioneer Elite CLD-97). Also, this is using the HDMI output on the AVR. If I plug the TV into the AVR using the composite monitor port, the picture goes through fine, which is another probably acceptable workaround.)

Has anyone else here got an LD player working with a high-end AVR from within the last 1-2 years? I'd love to hear some feedback from others, either successes or failures. If it's just me and there's a way to fix it, that would be terrific. If others are having a problem, perhaps we can collect more data to help identify the root cause of the problem, to potentially facilitate a fix via firmware upgrade or whatever. (That might be a bit optimistic, but it's better than nothing.)
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2014, 09:06 
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Yes,me. I had DVL-909, CLD-79 and currently only HLD X9 connected to a smallest High End AVR Pioneer SC-LX 56 (european name) from 2012. I didn't have any issues about AVR not recognizing any signals. It recognizes everything. If there is a signal missing, I first take a AVR remote and press for Analog/Digital/Auto to see in which mode it is and then it appears. My only issue has more to do with a Laserdisc multiple audio output options which cause me to go to AVR audio input set-up menu only to switch between DD 5.1 (optical 1 input) and Digital Stereo (coaxial 1 input).
I am very happy with my Pioneer AVR and didn't notice any flaws.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2014, 09:38 
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Using a Marantz sr-7007 here.
never encountered any problems. did you try setting the video output mode settings?
video mode: automatic
Conversion: ON
I/p scaler :HDMI

Progressive mode: Automatic

It might be the amp is losing the signal with the wrong settings....
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 01 Dec 2014, 09:47 
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also make sure (if tv supports this) hdmi handshake protocol is set to ON! this way the receiver syncs with the tv.
Might be called easy link , Braviasync ,Vierralink, CEC.....
Make sure your amp output is not set higher than what your tv is capable of.
in other words:
tv1080p - amp 720 or higher

tv720p (hd ready) amp not higher than 720p resolution....

or leave the input signal unprocessed by the amp being SD interlaced from ld
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 03:12 
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megarat wrote:
Other people on other fora (such as avsforum) reported similar issues, so it appears that this isn't just me.

I posted about this on AVS forum, and also started a thread here showing the problems I was having with a Pioneer SC-LX77:

Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver

In Pioneer's case, it's a problem with the Marvell QDEO video processor used in their AVRs, when presented with what Pioneer referred to as 'unstable sync' from analogue video sources. It wouldn't surprise me if Marantz are using the same processor.

I asked Pioneer UK if they had an LD player for testing, and after a long delay they replied saying they'd managed to obtain a CLD-1450. Pioneer then confirmed they were experiencing similar problems when the 1450 was connected to their SC-LX87, and forwarded the results of theirs and my test results to Pioneer Japan. Unfortunately Japan then confirmed it as a hardware problem with the QDEO processor which can't be fixed with a firmware update, and their only suggestion was to use composite video out from the AVR to TV, which defeats the whole object of having an AVR with video conversion.

I've since returned the Pioneer LX77 for a refund and replaced it with a Yamaha RX-A1030, which is working fine with both my LD players. Yamaha produce their own video processor in-house, so was I fairly confident I wouldn't run into the same issues the Pioneer suffered from. I did have one scare with the Yamaha when the TV started to a display a blank 'no-input' screen at random intervals, which usually lasted for a second or two before recovering. I discovered this was caused by a setting on the Yamaha called 'HDMI Monitor Check' which periodically checks the resolutions supported by the TV. I changed this setting to 'off' and haven't had a problem since. I set the Yamaha to output 1080i and let the TV deal with de-interlacing. I did notice some artifacts when setting the Yamaha to 1080p, which meant I preferred the 1080i output.

As an added bonus, the Yamaha x030 series are some of the last AVRs to include S-video inputs, so I'm able to continue using the LD player's Comb Filter if I wish to. I have an HLD-X9 connected via S-video as my main player and a CLD-2950 via composite which I use as a back-up. Picture quality is surprisingly good on a Panasonic plasma.

I still might consider a separate video processor at some stage. For now though, I'm just happy that everything's working again.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 11:03 
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[/quote]
I posted about this on AVS forum, and also started a thread here showing the problems I was having with a Pioneer SC-LX77:

Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver

In Pioneer's case, it's a problem with the Marvell QDEO video processor used in their AVRs, when presented with what Pioneer referred to as 'unstable sync' from analogue video sources. It wouldn't surprise me if Marantz are using the same processor.

Unfortunately Japan then confirmed it as a hardware problem with the QDEO processor which can't be fixed with a firmware update, and their only suggestion was to use composite video out from the AVR to TV, which defeats the whole object of having an AVR with video conversion
[/quote]

I didn't have such problems with my Pioneer SC-LX 56. Should I look for them? Your story makes me a bit mad though, because how can this be possible? Marvell was very proud to present a video processor which can handle all possible inferior signals and blow them up to 1080p within maximal picture quality capacity.

"As Pioneer's flagship A/V receiver, the SC-09TX/SC-LX90 represents a
new standard in high-end home theater sound and video that has never been
achieved before," stated Kazunaga Ida, general manager of HBG AV planning
Department at Pioneer Corporation. "By utilizing the Marvell 88DE2710 with
Qdeo video processing, the SC-09TX/SC-LX90 is able to consistently deliver
the highest quality HD experiences to our very discriminating customers."

"As the standard for image quality in the home theater continues to
increase with the growth of display size, contrast, and resolution, it is
imperative that video processing technologies stay one step ahead. Qdeo is
designed to deliver a completely immersive viewing experience by rendering
content in its most pristine form, without distractions, and without
harming the image," stated Dr. Nikhil Balram, vice president and general
manager of the Digital Entertainment Business Unit, Communications and
Consumer Business Group at Marvell.


Did Marvel forgot about decades of usage of an Analog video signal before the digital age? No mention of "unstable sync of analog to digital". I would like to have more informations about this statement from Pioneer Japan. Where can I find it please?
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 13:07 
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seroxx wrote:
Did Marvel forgot about decades of usage of an Analog video signal before the digital age? No mention of "unstable sync of analog to digital". I would like to have more informations about this statement from Pioneer Japan. Where can I find it please?

I spoke to Pioneer's helpdesk in the UK, and also corresponded with them via e-mail. I still have a copy of their e-mail response somewhere, so if you want to PM me your e-mail address, I'll forward it to you.

Older models such as the LX56 are unaffected by this problem, it only affects the newer generation of AVRs which presumably use a different video processor. I did ask Pioneer to test their CLD-1450 with the latest 58/78/88 range of AVRs and let me know if they were affected. I'm still wating to hear from them, so I'll take that as a 'yes' until I receive information to the contrary.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 15:36 
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The irony is that "sc-09/lx90" or its more proper name "susano" only does analog to hdmi conversion. Its hdmi inputs are only pass through!! It does analog to digital and upconversion to 1080p only on analog inputs:0

Even the small color screen monitor in the front only displays analog inputs. If you feed hdmi the front screen is blank. Nevertheless its s great avr. One of the latest ones with rf input:)
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 17:36 
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Has anyone tried fixing the "unstable sync" with a timebase corrector?

Just about every LD player has some form of timebase correction, but it's not perfect. An external full-frame TBC might do the trick even if it's not an ideal solution.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 18:35 
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tony426 wrote:
In Pioneer's case, it's a problem with the Marvell QDEO video processor used in their AVRs, when presented with what Pioneer referred to as 'unstable sync' from analogue video sources. It wouldn't surprise me if Marantz are using the same processor.

In fact Marantz are using a different processor on the SR7009, so it seems the Marvell QDEO isn't the only one with problems. I received a reply from Marantz support to say they use an Analog Devices ADV7850 for analogue to digital conversion:

http://www.analog.com/en/audiovideo-pro ... oduct.html

HDMI upscaling is performed separately by a Panasonic MN864777.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014, 14:20 
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Why do you use HDMI instead Component (at 1080i) ? It will be the perfect analog transition if im not wrong
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014, 20:56 
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Wrong. All analog inputs are converted to digital. All interlaced signal (480i and 1080i) is converted to progressive(480p and 1080p) then scaling is applied(up or down). If the desired output is interlaced(1080i) then as a final step the progressive signal is interlaced into 1080i. If you use component output instead of hdmi, then the digital signal is converted back to analog.

Your tv then take this signal and digitize it once more for its own processing. If you use hdmi then you can avoid one set of digital to analog, analog to digital conversion.

Signal is converted to digital early in the laserdisc player for tbc at least. It is not possible to have %100 analog path from laserdisc. Best you can do is avoid unnecessary digital to analog, analog to digital conversions which will happen if you use analog cables between components. Since there is not a single laserdisc player with digital video output. There is always going to be at least one d/a conversion.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 13 Dec 2014, 21:48 
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You can avoid digital stages - but you need everything to be old. And it's really not worth the trouble.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014, 06:41 
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How can you upscale in analog domain? You have to go really old and probably broadcast gear. Any box which will upconvert will have some digital stage. Even on crt displays i am pretty sure high end ones have digital processing.

Analog tbc is more damaging than d/a a/d artifacts. Best is to use post 90s low noise players directly into tv or scalar/avr with hdmi out so there is only one d/a a/d conversion.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014, 06:48 
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By everything I meant the display device, too ;) Would probably have to avoid most TV's past the mid 80'sish, I figure - and definitely no upscaling!
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014, 14:28 
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Many thanks for all the responses, especially tony426, and it's comforting to get some information about the root cause of the problem.

I'm still within the return period for the Marantz unit, so I'm probably going to return it; even though I could use the composite video out, and use the video processor in my Pioneer PDP (which looks excellent), I find this unacceptable behavior for a brand-new $2k unit, and I might as well continue to use my VSX-32 (which also has a Marvell Qdeo scaler, but presumably of an earlier generation). My next move might be to track down an older 9.1 Pioneer Elite model that won't have the same problem, since everything contemporary is now suspect. If seroxx can get his/her LD players working fine with a Pioneer LX-56, then my LD player would probably work fine with an Pioneer Elite model of the same vintage. (Would this be the SC-6x series?)

It would be interesting to track down the generation in which this problem started. And/or keep a database/list of which models are having problems with LD players because of this analog-to-digital conversion issue.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 14 Dec 2014, 20:26 
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Ups thanks ; "upscaling" takes digital moves...hehe..........back to crt.....hehe.................my Samsung plasma also applies DNR, i prefer Laserdisc even Blu-ray on a good crt
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 00:20 
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To follow up on this, I recently picked up a Pioneer SC-67, and while it works mostly fine with my LD player, it doesn't work with older composite video equipment (namely video game consoles from the 90s and earlier). And by "doesn't work", I mean only the conversion-to-digital step fails. It manages to put the signal through to the analogue output just fine. And by "it works mostly fine with the LD player", I means that I haven't encountered any practical issues when watching movies. When the player is idle, nothing goes to the display, including on-screen display information, but once the movie is playing it works fine. Still, I find it curious that it doesn't display the image from the LD player all of the time.

So I guess I'm happy-ish with it, at least for now, since I have my PDP connected via both HDMI and composite video. I'm just hoping that manufacturers don't let this remain the status quo, and that this issue will be fixed in future generations of AVRs.
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 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 06:27 
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I have a Pioneer VSX 816K receiver in my game room. No idea what the Elite version or European version may be however, even though the player makes reference to DVD/LD on the inputs and control and in the manual (and this is a 2006 receiver!) I cannot get the SR function to work with my CLD-A100, and there are very few LD codes to select from, while there are hundreds of ones for DVD players. I have a Pioneer Elite five disc DVD changer on the way and it didn't have a remote but I just bought a remote anyway as it was a few bucks.

Can't say anything bad about sonund or video but all I have is Mega LD games.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
PostPosted: 22 Feb 2015, 08:11 
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megarat wrote:
it doesn't work with older composite video equipment (namely video game consoles from the 90s and earlier). And by "doesn't work", I mean only the conversion-to-digital step fails. It manages to put the signal through to the analogue output just fine.

It probably cannot handle 240p signals. Many processors handles it as 480i. Relatively few can handle it as 240p natively (some Faroudja based and the XRGB units) and some cannot process the signal at all (i.e. Gennum VXP).
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