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 Post subject: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 18 Jun 2020, 23:18 
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Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]

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This disc is whopper. The picture quality and especially the audio are absolutely first class.

However, there is one thing about this disc that is even more spectacular.

Just how fecking quickly does the Sun make a swift exit!? It's not natural! The gig starts at what looks like the middle of the afternoon. 35 minutes later it's absolutely pitch black!

I remember more about the great storm that Michael Fish never warned us about 3 months after this gig than weather the Summer of 1987 was any good weather-wise. I was too busy listening to The Jets, Morris Minor and the Majors and Five Star to care.

So to sum up my review, the weather is bizarre. The audio and video is good too but forget that, get this for the weather, oh and Phil's haircut is tremendous as well.

That's all I have.
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2020, 02:08 
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teddanson wrote:
This disc is whopper. The picture quality and especially the audio are absolutely first class.


Shot on SONY HDVS 1,125 line video system (basically Hi-Vision), can't be bad if SONY did a good conversion to NTSC!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_HDVS#Uses

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For the Genesis Invisible Touch Tour shows at Wembley Stadium in July 1987, the Sony HDVS system was used to film these shows and later released in VHS and LaserDisc in 1988 and DVD in 2003.


The day to night instant transition happens on quite many concerts, I believe the group took a break mid-show that is not reflected/explained on the video release?

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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2020, 08:51 
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Yep, it has a few notes at the start about how the concert was filmed and down converted. In the end credits you can see who did it, some crowd in New York.

The weather though is odd. This thing doesn't look time edited, the setlist is seamless. My guess is if it was July it would be getting dark in London around 9:30pm as the longest day is June 21st and is usually light until around 10:30pm. Draw in by an hour over 2 or 3 weeks is fairly quick though?

The gig gets dark super fast, if you get a chance to watch the disc you will see. One minute it's a scorching afternoon, the next it's like someone chucked a bottle of fountain pen ink over the London sky! It happens toward the end of Side A.
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 19 Jun 2020, 08:55 
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teddanson wrote:
The weather though is odd. This thing doesn't look time edited, the setlist is seamless. My guess is if it was July it would be getting dark in London around 9:30pm as the longest day is June 21st and is usually light until around 10:30pm. Draw in by an hour over 2 or 3 weeks is fairly quick though?


They had 4 Wembley shows to close the tour from Wednesday to Saturday.

I could imagine the weekday shows where at night and the final Saturday concert was in the afternoon and they mashed up the best versions of each songs for the final edit?

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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2021, 23:03 
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This disc really is a Laserdisc benchmark. I went to find the DVD version on AlphabetPipe for a friend. How the hell anyone finds 360p Potatovision acceptable is mind boggling. Let alone 540p. This Laserdisc absolutely destroys it.

Phil's hair too of course... :thumbup:
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 26 Feb 2021, 23:28 
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admin wrote:
teddanson wrote:
The weather though is odd. This thing doesn't look time edited, the setlist is seamless. My guess is if it was July it would be getting dark in London around 9:30pm as the longest day is June 21st and is usually light until around 10:30pm. Draw in by an hour over 2 or 3 weeks is fairly quick though?


They had 4 Wembley shows to close the tour from Wednesday to Saturday.

I could imagine the weekday shows where at night and the final Saturday concert was in the afternoon and they mashed up the best versions of each songs for the final edit?

Julien


This is likely the explanation. Seconds Out was made from several shows, one from a different tour even, when you listen to the record you can’t tell. Even classical music is often recorded this way.

I’m not an huge fan of later Genesis, but Phil, as a person, is clearly the coolest person in the band. I love that video where he talks to the drum machine...
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 20:22 
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This is a good disc content-wise, despite being from my least favorite Genesis era. Phil is always quite the showman, and you could scream and he would be able to tell you what key it was in.

I have all of their LD releases other than a few Japanese versions of concerts I already have US copies of. I'm a huge fan of Genesis, especially pre-1980.

I disagree strongly about the disc quality though. I felt like the LD mastering produced a very noisy picture here. Maybe I have a bad copy? I don't know. There's definitely no rot on mine, it's just bad chroma noise. One of the worst in my collection.
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 20:44 
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mikechambers wrote:
This is a good disc content-wise, despite being from my least favorite Genesis era. Phil is always quite the showman, and you could scream and he would be able to tell you what key it was in.

I have all of their LD releases other than a few Japanese versions of concerts I already have US copies of. I'm a huge fan of Genesis, especially pre-1980.

I disagree strongly about the disc quality though. I felt like the LD mastering produced a very noisy picture here. Maybe I have a bad copy? I don't know. There's definitely no rot on mine, it's just bad chroma noise. One of the worst in my collection.


This doesn’t sound right, it does look pretty good spun on my X9 and the sound quality is absolutely top draw, despite being 1987 it was actually shot using 1st generation Sony HDVS cameras and it really shows despite being downressed for SD. I think read somewhere that the DVD looks rather poor though?
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 20:59 
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I have the DVD too, and it does look pretty bad. Very bad MPEG artifacts iirc.

I may not have played this LD since back when my only player was an old LD-V2200 though, so that could be the problem. I don't have an X9, but I could spin it up in my DVL-919 or Denon LA-2300 and see if it looks much better than I remember. I could have sworn I've already played it on the Denon, which is a decent player, but I could be wrong.

EDIT: Watching on the DVL-919 now. It looks much better than I remember on the old player, but I'm still seeing heavier than average chroma noise, and I also can see some wavy lines on lighter areas like the sky. Luma signal is good. Edges and outlines are crisp. So, not as bad as I first said, even good, but I wouldn't call it a benchmark disc for the picture or anything. The PCM audio is fantastic over TOSLINK, very crisp! Excellent sound. This blows away the DVD version overall.

A lot of the problem may be that there's a lot of strong blue/purple/green against dark black from the stage lights throughout a lot of this concert, which I've noticed tends to be a little noisy on LD in general.
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 21:26 
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Yes what you’re now describing sounds more like it, though the wavy lines you describe have never caught my attention tbh but then again perhaps its not fair to make a comparison against an X9 so I’ll run it at some point on my CLD-925 to see. I do agree some of the lighting is very difficult to handle for SD video especially after darkness had fallen which on the disc comes pretty soon into the show. Thanks for confirming about the DVD version!
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 21:30 
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Yeah, I'm thinking your X9 probably more or less eliminates the waves. The DVL-919 has pretty average LD circuitry. A solid player, but no X9. My Denon might actually be slightly better looking than the DVL, but it's hard to tell. Still, they're my best two players. For the moment. :)

I tend to use the DVL because it has those cool CLV trick play features.

Maybe later tonight I'll do a few screen grabs comparing the LD and DVD versions.

As far as Genesis discs go though, I think The Way We Walk is their best looking LD. It also looks (and sounds) better than the DVD version, which again, I also have. Plus the setlist is better! Old Medley blows me away every time.
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 28 Feb 2021, 23:00 
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mikechambers wrote:
Yeah, I'm thinking your X9 probably more or less eliminates the waves. The DVL-919 has pretty average LD circuitry. A solid player, but no X9. My Denon might actually be slightly better looking than the DVL, but it's hard to tell. Still, they're my best two players. For the moment. :)

I tend to use the DVL because it has those cool CLV trick play features.

Maybe later tonight I'll do a few screen grabs comparing the LD and DVD versions.

As far as Genesis discs go though, I think The Way We Walk is their best looking LD. It also looks (and sounds) better than the DVD version, which again, I also have. Plus the setlist is better! Old Medley blows me away every time.


Yep got that one too although mine is the PAL Pioneer LDCE release, presumably yours will be the US NTSC version so what do you reckon on PQ as odds are this was originated on PAL format gear and its a tad too soft for my taste so what’s your verdict on the NTSC version? - and yes great show shot at the now sadly no longer Earls Court Concert Venue which three years later was the setting for Pink Floyds Pulse.
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 01:42 
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Pink Floyd Pulse, another incredible classic concert!

The Genesis NTSC version is pretty nice. Maybe a little softer than the Invisible Touch Tour disc on the details, but much less of an issue with the chroma noise.

And I actually think the source is native NTSC, because if I use yadif 2x deinterlacing to double the frame rate, it looks like a legit smooth 60 FPS. Like each NTSC field was captured 60000/1001th of a second apart.

Here's a sample using that deinterlace: http://dedi.rubbermallet.org/twww-filter.mkv

Raw capture, before any filtering: http://dedi.rubbermallet.org/twww-raw.mkv

Captured from the Denon player.
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 09:48 
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mikechambers wrote:
Pink Floyd Pulse, another incredible classic concert!

The Genesis NTSC version is pretty nice. Maybe a little softer than the Invisible Touch Tour disc on the details, but much less of an issue with the chroma noise.

And I actually think the source is native NTSC, because if I use yadif 2x deinterlacing to double the frame rate, it looks like a legit smooth 60 FPS. Like each NTSC field was captured 60000/1001th of a second apart.

Here's a sample using that deinterlace: http://dedi.rubbermallet.org/twww-filter.mkv

Raw capture, before any filtering: http://dedi.rubbermallet.org/twww-raw.mkv

Captured from the Denon player.


I’d be really keen to see those samples Mike but my device won’t allow me....damn!

What you say about Invisible Touch being sourced from a native master is really interesting, I’m now tempted to try and get hold of the US or JPN release, not because I’m disappointed with the PAL version but if say a 15-20% improvement in PQ is possible then to me it’s worth the move. Just briefly going back to Pulse; having owned both PAL & NTSC versions there is no doubt this was native PAL as the European version is generally much sharper although can struggle quite badly with chroma noise at times and certainly when spun on my CLD-925, different story on an older 2950 picture looks excellent with noise virtually absent! In the end it’s all part of the enjoyment with this hobby I guess :thumbup:
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 17:28 
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Sorry, I should have been clearer. It was The Way We Walk that I meant I believe is a native NTSC recording.

I used a lossless video codec called Lagarith for these, I wonder if your player is tripping up on this. After work tonight, I can just try encoding it with high bitrate H264.

And yes, Pulse was PAL for sure. I can tell when I watch my NTSC disc that it's a conversion.

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In the end it’s all part of the enjoyment with this hobby I guess


Nobody can understand we we spend so much money on different players and discs for a long-dead format, and I've stopped trying to explain. Because I'm not sure there is a reasonable explanation. :lol:

But I'm having fun. :P
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 17:59 
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Those samples look great! Good job. :thumbup:
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 18:39 
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mikechambers wrote:
Sorry, I should have been clearer. It was The Way We Walk that I meant I believe is a native NTSC recording.

I used a lossless video codec called Lagarith for these, I wonder if your player is tripping up on this. After work tonight, I can just try encoding it with high bitrate H264.

And yes, Pulse was PAL for sure. I can tell when I watch my NTSC disc that it's a conversion.

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In the end it’s all part of the enjoyment with this hobby I guess


Nobody can understand we we spend so much money on different players and discs for a long-dead format, and I've stopped trying to explain. Because I'm not sure there is a reasonable explanation. :lol:

But I'm having fun. :P


No it was my bad, I actually understood that you meant The Way We Walk, don’t know why I put Invisible Touch :oops:
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2021, 18:41 
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teddanson wrote:
Those samples look great! Good job. :thumbup:

Wish I could see them too!
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2021, 07:13 
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I didn't forget about this thread. I'm uploading some videos so you guys can compare the Invisible Touch Tour LD with the DVD. They're large files, I'll probably end up posting links tomorrow. I'm using a different video codec, so hopefully you can see them laserfanhld-gb! But I'm still using lossless compression, which is why the files are huge.
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 Post subject: Re: Genesis: Invisible Touch Tour (1988) [42LS 2008]
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2021, 17:21 
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The DVD version looks a bit better than I remember. It's been many years since I had played it. It doesn't look too bad. I think my memory confused it having bad MPEG artifacts with The Way We Walk DVD.

I just chose the same one minute clip out of the concert for each sample.

DVD: http://dedi.rubbermallet.org/tonight-dvd.mkv (460 MB)

Laserdisc deinterlaced, no noise reduction: http://dedi.rubbermallet.org/tonight-ld-raw.mkv (638 MB)

Laserdisc deinterlaced, with noise reduction: http://dedi.rubbermallet.org/tonight-ld-filter.mkv (516 MB)

You can clearly see what I mean about the chroma noise in the LD clip without noise reduction.

I think the audio on the LD puts the DVD to shame. You're hearing the digital track, but through the analog audio outs on the LD player so that mean's the player's DAC is used. I have no way right now to rip the raw SPDIF bitstream.

Again, this is with a Denon LA-2300. (I believe it's a CLD-515 clone)
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