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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2019, 07:56 
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Definitely they should have considered a "U-matic to DVD direct port" on this particular release, but they wanted the BD money...
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2019, 14:39 
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I am pretty sure DVD still outsells BD.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 05 Jan 2019, 14:58 
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There are actually decent telecine solutions today for both 16 and 35mm film. In comparison to Datacine and similar solutions (Scanity, GoldenEye, Cintel etc) their main pro is speed, which is certainly a factor for all those thousands of newsreels and such that the archives want digitized in high quality but don't feel like spending more than a couple of years to complete. Modern professional cameras are actually in many cases more than good enough to capture most of the information from celluloid film right away unless it's in rather poor condition - especially if the colors are very faded. In those cases you really want high quality RAW or DPX files to work with rather than ProRes. Most telecine machines nowadays offer quite decent grade solutions which may not remove the need of post-grading completely but it makes the entire process so much easier.

I've been working with a Blackmagic Cintel 2 scanner for the past month and it's really fantastic considering its pricepoint. It does have certain flaws, like the lack of WTW coverage (though BTB is still intact) and the bayern sensor can be a bit noisy if you're not using the chroma NR tools in Davinci but overall I'm pretty much stunned. However, if you're visiting TV studios and film archives you'll actually notice that many of them have rebuilt their old telecine scanners from the 80s and 90s by reverse engineering so they now output HD formats instead. Quite fascinating to say the last. I'd really love to get hold of an old Mark 3 or something like that for a low price and try to make it useable in a modern, digital workflow at some point.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 07:10 
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Nobody believes the VHS/LD look that misty; anyway watch the blue color how natural it is (right) and how it is oversaturated on the HD release

Image
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 07:21 
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The non existent greyscale ,trembling cels,dead backgrounds and the total BD color mess,save your money
Image
the VHS whites,superb greyscale and color grading (little bit undersaturated and downgraded)
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Image
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 09:29 
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ertoili wrote:
Nobody believes the VHS/LD look that misty; anyway watch the blue color how natural it is (right) and how it is oversaturated on the HD release

Image

The more apparent blue color on the recent release is actually due to the smaller dynamic range. I am not familiar with any of the animes you've posted images from but based on what I see I think there's a chance that those old VHS versions are sourced from low-contrast prints which by nature have high black level as well as greyish whites and usually end up with muted colors unless properly color corrected.

I did a small test with my quoted example in Photoshop. All I adjusted was the white and black clipping plus middle grey point. And as you can clearly see, they offer much of the same characteristics with some minor differences in hue. It's just that the old master was improperly mastered in a very basic way, which I believe was very common at the time.
Image

I'd say low contrast prints most certainly need to be graded in post though usually a telecine transfer is a decent enough source most of the time for that purpose.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 10:19 
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nissling wrote:
ertoili wrote:
Nobody believes the VHS/LD look that misty; anyway watch the blue color how natural it is (right) and how it is oversaturated on the HD release

Image

The more apparent blue color on the recent release is actually due to the smaller dynamic range. I am not familiar with any of the animes you've posted images from but based on what I see I think there's a chance that those old VHS versions are sourced from low-contrast prints which by nature have high black level as well as greyish whites and usually end up with muted colors unless properly color corrected.

I did a small test with my quoted example in Photoshop. All I adjusted was the white and black clipping plus middle grey point. And as you can clearly see, they offer much of the same characteristics with some minor differences in hue. It's just that the old master was improperly mastered in a very basic way, which I believe was very common at the time.
Image

I'd say low contrast prints most certainly need to be graded in post though usually a telecine transfer is a decent enough source most of the time for that purpose.


Even with that adjustment blue and red are a total delta error in the Bluray
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 10:47 
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Image
BD shows a high blue deviation look at the building in the background, in the BD all is blue even red, as you said
is a huge hue error

the VHS
Image

Image


Last edited by ertoili on 07 Jan 2019, 12:15, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 15:33 
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How do the cels “tremble”? That’s the part I don’t get.


Last edited by signofzeta on 06 Jan 2019, 23:24, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 16:49 
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i appreciate in some classic anime HD remasters that the cels in first plane lose integration with the watercolor painted backgrounds, and they move a bit over them. (excuse my English:)
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 17:02 
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nissling wrote:
I think there's a chance that those old VHS versions are sourced from low-contrast prints which by nature have high black level as well as greyish whites and usually end up with muted colors unless properly color corrected.



So you are saying that prints back in the day of this quality were "low contrast" and were really just cheap junk we were choking down?

Ertoli, I actually owned this LD at one time, about 2 years ago.
Those SD images on the right of your examples are total BS and the LD while not perfect was NOT that horrible.
It was NOT faded like pictured and this is just a total BS example to show others that people before a certain age were choking this stuff
down because we didn't have any other options.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 19:12 
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rein-o wrote:
So you are saying that prints back in the day of this quality were "low contrast" and were really just cheap junk we were choking down?

Ehh... What? Plenty of films and shows have been transferred through Telecine with low contrast prints (that's actually a thing, not something I made up), and if you're not using the color tools properly you will end up with rather poor dynamic range in the end. The reason why low contrast prints were used in many cases rather than theatrical prints is basically because the high contrast on the latter will cause very apparent clipping in the whites or an image that's overall too dark basically. Even with modern film scanners theatrical prints are very difficult to get decent results from.

In other words, a low contrast print transferred properly looked great on Laserdisc. If something was messed up or mastering issues occured however, the end result will not be all that pleasing. That appears to be the case right here.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 19:58 
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Ah, low contrast print sounds like a cheap way of doing something.
That's what I was trying to understand.

So low contrast is a format as I believed you, but done wrong is bad done right is good.


While those pics above of the SD or un-mastered look like what you are saying they are altered to make the original SD look horrible and not what
the LD looked like at all in any way with the worst set in the world and worst LD player.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 22:08 
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That screen cap does look VERY severe. Like a worn out VHS tape.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 06 Jan 2019, 23:28 
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ertoili wrote:
i appreciate in some classic anime HD remasters that the cels in first plane lose integration with the watercolor painted backgrounds, and they move a bit over them. (excuse my English:)


Yeah, of course. So I don’t get why you’re complaining about it. Do you want them to scrub it out or do you want them to get into a time machine and watch the camera technician in 1982 and make sure he does a better job? They can’t reshoot it. Do you want a remake? I don’t get it.

There are ways of eliminating these sorts of errors but then you irritate the people who don’t want their old shows Special Editioned. This is very invasive work to do and IMO in poor taste.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2019, 00:36 
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yeah same reason I prefer my DYRL? LD to my remastered DVD.

The LD of old shows always looks ideal, it's also actually the way people saw it at the time, you can't change history or make history "better" by using current technology. It's wrong.

I want the same experience of a guy with cash, taste and knowledge circa 1990. That hasn't changed since 1990 when I was a 12 year old kid drooling over this stuff in Japanese magazines and at other people's houses.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2019, 04:49 
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Pretty much agree with movies being left alone. In particular b&w movies should be left b&w.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2019, 11:22 
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yeah agree , the misty captures at right are done by the Bluray vendors to show sd master looking horribly, you can see even the VHS caps i posted look better (and more color accurate than the oversaturated BD itself)

Dont see any problem on low contrast editions, the whole VHS format is and i love white skin tones on it.
Very expensive box with the bandai techroid figure avoid it really
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2019, 15:09 
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gypsy wrote:
Pretty much agree with movies being left alone. In particular b&w movies should be left b&w.


Ten years ago I think most people would agree that colorization is pointless but...it’s starting to slowly come back. I’ve seen new colorizations here and there. Probably because the tech is basically automatic now and much better. I don’t think it will take off but it is out there.

The only colorized thing I own is the Ray Harryhausen Box which he lived long enough to approve and also has the b/w on it. It’s hard to imagine wanting anything else colorized. RH was a master if there ever was one and if he says he wished he could have shot it in color originally and couldn’t because there wasn’t the budget then I believe him. He’s quite possibly the only filmmaker ever who I’d say his about. For the most part he made all those models himself and also did most of the animation and photography. Often times totally by himself in his own studio. He’s not speaking unilaterally for hundreds of dead actors and technicians he’s basically colorizing his own stuff.

Anything else colorized can just burn.
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 Post subject: Re: what anime's have you guys been watching recently
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2019, 18:19 
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Been watching Macross Plus.

WTF how does this have anything to do with the original series in anyway??
Am I missing something here.

From the one Macross 7 film I saw that fits more into the series than this.
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