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 Post subject: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 05 May 2022, 20:58 
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I've been finding a few remixed/remastered albums with 24-bit/96khz audio on them, but they are not actually DVD-Audio discs.

I have The Moody Blues' Days of Future Passed that says 5.1 surround and 24/96 on the DVD. However, the DVD-Audio logo is not on the disc or case anywhere.

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When I tried to rip it like a DVD-Audio disc, there was no information in the AUDIO_TS folder.

Now, I just recently ordered Hootie and the Blowfish Cracked Rear View 25th Anniversary Edition (damn I'm getting old), and it too says it has 5.1 surround and 24/96 Stereo Tracks, but also says on the case "Linear PCM"

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Keep in mind that this is NOT the DVD-Audio release of the same album from back in 2001.

LPCM has always been a capability of DVD-Video (as I have a few music video DVDs that have LPCM sound), but has 24/96 LPCM always been a capability of the format that is rarely utilized? I do remember my first DVD player, the DVL-919 did have a front display message about 96 khz audio:

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Does anyone else have any 24/96khz DVD-Video discs?

I wonder what the bitrate is on these tracks? The MLP tracks on some of my DVD-Audio discs went has high as 3 Mbps. Is the max on DVD-Video LPCM 1536 Kbps?

PS: I realize the 5.1 surround on these discs is your standard compressed Dolby Digital. I'm more concerned with the stereo tracks.
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 07 May 2022, 03:08 
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Well here's the answer about the bitrate. I used MediaCoder to try to rip the audio from the Days of Future Passed DVD and the analysis of the track gave me this:

Attachment:
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4.6 Mbps!
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 09 May 2022, 15:50 
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elahrairrah wrote:
LPCM has always been a capability of DVD-Video (as I have a few music video DVDs that have LPCM sound), but has 24/96 LPCM always been a capability of the format that is rarely utilized?

Does anyone else have any 24/96khz DVD-Video discs?


It has been quite a while since I've stared at Scenarist or DVD-Audio Creator all day so my math is fuzzy at best....

However, DVD-V could support 96k/16bit (maybe 20bit) files in Sonic (Daiken) Scenarist. So you could bit budget a file that had up to 6 channels at 96/16 as long as it was less than 9.2 or 9.8 Mbps. The spec allowed 24 bit files but Scenarist didn't. *EDIT: Scenarist Pro allowed 24 bit files.* You might have needed to use DVD Creator on a MacOS 9 machine or Panasonic's proprietary Windows-based authoring system (MEI) to do that and even then I doubt it would be under the throughput limit.


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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 09 May 2022, 16:36 
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This is an excerpt from page 47 of....

Publishing in the Age of DVD: A Primer for Creating Content for DVD by Mark Ely and Dave Block
2nd edition Copyright 1997-1998 Sonic Solutions

PCM Capture

Quote:
"...The PCM Audio availabe for the DVD format ranges from mono to eight channels and can be 48K (24 bit up to 4 channels, 20 bit up to 6 channels and 16bit up to 8 channels) or 96K (24 bit stereo, 20 bit 3 channels or 16 bit 4 channels)."


This primer was written for Sonic DVD Creator on the Mac OS platform (as shown in the screen images). There is no mention of Scenarist as it had not yet been acquired from Daiken.

While DVD Creator could be used to author DVD-Audio discs, and it was, this information relates specifically to the DVD-Video format/specification.
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 10 May 2022, 19:58 
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Shame not too many distributors took advantage of this capability. We've had better than CD quality digital sound in our homes since 1997 but hardly anyone gave us any software to take advantage of it!!!

One wonders though why with some DVD-Audio releases, they gave us 24-bit/96khz 2-channel stereo tracks with Meridian Lossless Packing? Why not just go with LPCM and save MLP for the 24-bit/192khz 2-channel or the 24/96khz 5.1 audio?
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 11 May 2022, 16:40 
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elahrairrah wrote:
One wonders though why with some DVD-Audio releases, they gave us 24-bit/96khz 2-channel stereo tracks with Meridian Lossless Packing? Why not just go with LPCM and save MLP for the 24-bit/192khz 2-channel or the 24/96khz 5.1 audio?


My guess would be that there was additional content like a video zone or a 5.1 mix, or just the run time being long requiring the overall size of the disc to be taken into account. Otherwise, there could be licensing requirements. I know that with DVD-V the disc is required to have Dolby Digital or PCM audio, MPEG-2 Audio was optional. AC-3 was a licensing fee but PCM took up more disc space...and no one liked MPEG-2 Audio.

I agree that there should have been more straight up 192/24 or 96/24 Stereo PCM releases. However, that seems to be more of an SACD thing - high res stereo with a CD layer for legacy. DVD-Audio was more surround and video focused IMO. Video chews up a lot of space and often there were multiple flavors of audio available (MLP, PCM, DTS, AC-3, etc) or even separate mixes (stage vs. audience perspective). None of that was really a selling point for SACD which was marketed to "audiophiles" where as DVD-A was a more consumer/entertainment/home theatre oriented despite it being as good, if not better than, SACD fidelity. MLP encoded 192/24 sounds pretty good next to any SACD I've ever listened to. I'd wager 192/24 PCM would beat an SACD of the same material on the same system.
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 11 May 2022, 18:25 
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Usually the video content on the DVD-Audio releases I have is amazingly limited. Like a still image or a few at best.

I think only Stone Temple Pilots - Core has a single music video on the DVD-Audio release.

Of course, this was early on in DVD-Audio's life (like the 2nd DVD-Audio release in the US ever!) so they were probably going with MLP as it was new and shiny (plus 192khz.)

As far as comparing 24/192khz DVD-A to SACD, I did that with Chicago II as you might have seen, and found the DVD-A to be superior. Even some friends and family members think so too (despite thinking the SACD was going to be better going in.)
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 13 May 2022, 20:06 
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Well, here's at least one DVD-Audio release I've been able to find that has LPCM 24/96 stereo, but MLP 24/96 5.1 Surround . . .

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Also cool that the DVD-Video compatible 5.1 surround track is DTS--if it is full bitrate DTS that is!
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 14 May 2022, 16:32 
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elahrairrah wrote:
Usually the video content on the DVD-Audio releases I have is amazingly limited. Like a still image or a few at best.

Queen - A Night at The Opera has the Bohemian Rhapsody MV. Beck - Sea Change also has a video I think.

elahrairrah wrote:
As far as comparing 24/192khz DVD-A to SACD, I did that with Chicago II as you might have seen, and found the DVD-A to be superior. Even some friends and family members think so too (despite thinking the SACD was going to be better going in.)

Cool! Yeah my Chicago I has 192/24 which is nice. SACDs just sound harsh to me. Hyped. DVD-A just sounds like a well mastered CD with more dynamic range and fidelity. Smooth.

LZ - How The West Was Won has a 48k/24bit Stereo PCM track fro the DVD-V Zone.

Good catch on that Megadeath disc. Seems odd for that sort of music to be concerned with sound quality though...

If you're looking for the absolute best demonstration of the format look for both samplers from AIX records. They are feature packed with MLP, DTS, and video with multiple angles. Smaller independent artists who are recorded with surround mixing in mind by the guy that runs AIX. He was my college professor and the reason I am into DVD-A at all.
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There is also a Panasonic/Technics Promo disc with mostly PCM tracks, even surround except the 96/20/5ch.
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Enjoy :)
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2022, 20:27 
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After more snooping about for more SACD and DVD-Audio discs, I found that there was actually a name for these DVD-Video compatible 24-bit/96Khz audio discs before DVD-Audio came around.

Apparently they were called DAD (Digital Audio Discs.)

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Haven't found anything far too interesting on the format--mostly Jazz, Blues, Classical. Only Rock I've found was a Pete Townshend DAD

Of course these all seem to be released by this company Classic Records, so it might not be the official name for the format, but just what they decided to call it.

EDIT: According to Discogs, DAD was "Series of reissues encoded at 24-bit 96 kHz on DVD media from Classic Records." So yeah, it was just what they called it.

Apparently they coined another title for a format--HDAD. According to Discogs - "Series of reissues from Classic Records encoded with 24/192 PCM data playable on DVD-Audio players one side, and 24/96 PCM data playable on standard DVD players on the other.'

Pretty cool idea. Though realistically they could have just put both of those on a dual layer, single sided DVD couldn't they?
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 07 Jul 2022, 22:58 
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Indie band Ash released a lot of material on DVD Audio. I had one of their releases years ago around the time Nu Clear Sounds was released.

Great band, great music and still going today AFAIK.

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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2022, 16:21 
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Found an interesting older article decrying the then new DVD format and its plan to include 96khz audio capabilities. Stating that converting 96khz audio to the widely used 44.1khz Redbook standard would result in audio quality degradation.

DVD, Yes. 96kHz, No!

What stood out for me was this part when explaining why Toshiba went with 96khz rather than a multiple of the 44.1khz standard:

Quote:
The answer has nothing to do with music, technology, mathematics, or the quality of reproduced sound. The decision to make 96kHz the standard is instead based on corporate politics. Toshiba wants the new DVD to have as little to do as possible with the Sony/Philips Red Book standard, even to the point of arbitrarily changing the sampling frequency.


Yeesh! Did Toshiba and Sony really hate each other that much? I mean, it obviously carried on with the HD-DVD/blu-ray format war.

Ultimately though, the worries of audio loss in conversion must have not been all that bad seeing as how the vast majority of "hi-res" music I see out there is 24/96 or 24/192 (though I have come across some 24/88.2 or 24/176.4 content.) The reprinting of the article even includes this footnote:

Quote:
Yes, the 96kHz–44.1kHz conversion is still mathematically demanding, but hardware solutions like the dCS 972 and software solutions like Barbabatch, Bias Peak 5, and Adobe Audition can perform the conversion in a transparent manner.
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2022, 17:10 
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elahrairrah wrote:
What stood out for me was this part when explaining why Toshiba went with 96khz rather than a multiple of the 44.1khz standard:

Quote:
The answer has nothing to do with music, technology, mathematics, or the quality of reproduced sound. The decision to make 96kHz the standard is instead based on corporate politics. Toshiba wants the new DVD to have as little to do as possible with the Sony/Philips Red Book standard, even to the point of arbitrarily changing the sampling frequency.


Wasn't it simply that Red Book CD was 44.1kHz but DAT was also a popular recording/mastering format natively using 48kHz?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Tape

Quote:
The DAT standard allows for four sampling modes: 32 kHz at 12 bits, and 32 kHz, 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz at 16 bits. Certain recorders operate outside the specification, allowing recording at 96 kHz and 24 bits (HHS).


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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 10 Aug 2022, 20:41 
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admin wrote:
elahrairrah wrote:
What stood out for me was this part when explaining why Toshiba went with 96khz rather than a multiple of the 44.1khz standard:

Quote:
The answer has nothing to do with music, technology, mathematics, or the quality of reproduced sound. The decision to make 96kHz the standard is instead based on corporate politics. Toshiba wants the new DVD to have as little to do as possible with the Sony/Philips Red Book standard, even to the point of arbitrarily changing the sampling frequency.


Wasn't it simply that Red Book CD was 44.1kHz but DAT was also a popular recording/mastering format natively using 48kHz?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Audio_Tape

Quote:
The DAT standard allows for four sampling modes: 32 kHz at 12 bits, and 32 kHz, 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz at 16 bits. Certain recorders operate outside the specification, allowing recording at 96 kHz and 24 bits (HHS).


Julien

This is true and DAT was a Sony product!!

I think the explanation for that can be if they were using DAT as a master to be used for copies then they would most likely use 44.1khz for compatibility, while 48khz would be used for anything else that wouldn't need compatibility (like your own music compilations from analog sources I suppose?)
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2022, 15:11 
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Acquired another DVD-Audio release that has 24-bit/96khz LPCM (wasn't getting it for that reason, just discovered that it had it), but it has another odd aspect to it that perplexes me. It's Pet Sounds by the Beach Boys:

Image

It's a dual sided disc. DVD-Video compatible on one side and DVD-Audio Advanced Resolution Surround on the other. The DVD-Video side has both 24-bit/96khz stereo and mono, but a note on the liner and the back about remastering is what caught my eye the most . . .

Attachment:
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"Remastered...using the HDCD process"?!?!?

Even has the HDCD logo on the back where the other audio logos are.

Was going to try playing the DVD-Video side in Windows Media Player to see if the HDCD flag came up, but I forgot that Microsoft took out DVD playback in WMP so you'd have to buy a DVD player app from the app store.

Might try hooking up the Panasonic DVD player I found at a thrift store that has HDCD capabilities later on (just moved recently so I'll have to dig it up), but this is definitely the first HDCD related DVD (video or audio) I've ever come across.
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2022, 02:46 
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elahrairrah wrote:
"Remastered...using the HDCD process"?!?!?


They did a HDCD (Compact Disc) remaster around 2000, and the cover shows similar information on the cover:

ex: https://www.discogs.com/release/619423-The-Beach-Boys-Pet-Sounds

When they planned a DVD Audio release in 2003, they probably just re-used that master and kept the marketing hype paragraph around the remastering process.

https://www.discogs.com/release/1301711-The-Beach-Boys-Pet-Sounds

Of course HDCD was meant to added a few more bits of information on a constant data rate system.
When upgrading to MLP (variable data rate), I seriously hope they unfolded the HDCD data!

Unless they have a 16-bit/44.1kHz track somewhere, I don't think your Amp will detect any HDCD.

To confirm this , you could try to rip the stereo audio tracks as WAVs and run them through foobar2000 HDCD plugin for detection.

https://www.foobar2000.org/components/view/foo_hdcd

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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2022, 19:09 
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Ahh, good to know.

I sure hope they unfolded it too!

I've been unsuccessful ripping the 24/96 stereo or mono tracks from the DVD-Video side. The means I normally use--MediaCoder--isn't converting the tracks to lossless flac properly (hearing a loud digital screech throughout.)

When I find the time I'll try other means.

Also, I discovered that the 24/96 tracks on Days of Future Passed above aren't really 24/96. They're 16/96--which I thought wasn't actually possible, but unless MediaCoder lied to me . . .
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2022, 17:28 
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Was finally able to rip the supposed 24/94 audio from the DVD-Video side of Pet Sounds (disc was copy protected so had to use DVD Shrink to decrypt it.) Again, like Days of Future Passed it's turning up as 16/96 not 24/96.

Attachment:
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Attachment:
daysof_1696.gif
daysof_1696.gif [ 40.52 KiB | Viewed 62 times ]

It's definitely not an issue with Media Coder, because Cracked Rear View is coming up fine as 24-bit with the same setting for flac ("Original" for both bit depth and sampling rate)

Attachment:
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Attachment:
mediacodersettings.gif
mediacodersettings.gif [ 177.19 KiB | Viewed 62 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2022, 15:38 
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The Pet Sounds disc has channels mis configured if I recall. The Front and Rear are reversed or the Center and Rear. Look it up.

The best part of that particular disc is the 96/24 MONO version of the album. Fantastic. Its the only way I really listen to it.

RE: 48k vs 44.1k the myth is that the guy in charge of making CD wanted to fit Beethoven's 9th Symphony on 1 disc as opposed to several LPs making 74 minutes at 44.1k a standard.

In fact, the first digital audio tape system ran at 44.056k because they used NTSC tape based systems.

48k is mostly from the video world where all digital audio married to video runs at 48k (Think D1, D2, DigitBeta, DV, DVCPRO, etc) This is also why DAT (based on video technology) is 48k, its for professional use. I'm guessing it has to do with the rotational head speed in those tape based systems.

I was shocked when I got into LD that the audio was 44.1k (44.056k actually) and not 48k like all other video with digital audio.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sampling_(signal_processing)#Sampling_rate
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 Post subject: Re: 24-bit/96khz DVD Audio but not DVD-Audio
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2022, 15:54 
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elahrairrah wrote:
Was finally able to rip the supposed 24/94 audio from the DVD-Video side of Pet Sounds (disc was copy protected so had to use DVD Shrink to decrypt it.) Again, like Days of Future Passed it's turning up as 16/96 not 24/96.

Try DVD-Audio explorer, DVDAudiophile or DVD-Audio Rip if you have't already.

There is a small file on the disc, MKV. That is the KEY. You can copy it from the disc. Each studio has a different Lock/Key. If you note which studio you get the files from you can then use them to burn copies that will play on a real player. Some of the copy programs miss this file.

You're using DVD-Shrink and that is likely messing with the sample rate/bit depth. I can confirm its 96/24 files on the audio side. The video zone is going to be AC-3/DTS. When you put the disc in a non-audio capable player you get the video zone and it only has AC-3 usually and sometimes you get DTS also. I'm guessing what you ripped from the video zone was DTS or AC-3 that got converted to PCM. The DTS and AC3 files are 16 bit, sometimes 20. You you're seeing the correct sample rate, which doesn't change and the bit depth of the container file (DTS/AC3) that then gets converted to PCM and perhaps downconverted to stereo.

DVD-A Explorer works well....has bugs but works.
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