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 Post subject: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 28 May 2014, 22:11 
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Has anyone here connected their LD player to an AV Receiver for upscaling and HDMI conversion?

I bought a new Pioneer AVR recently because I liked the idea of being able to connect several analogue devices and use one HDMI output to the TV. I also needed a new surround amp and this one seemed to do everything I needed. I'm beginning to wonder if I've made a huge mistake because the amp has been nothing short of a disaster when selecting any analogue video inputs. HDMI-HDMI seems OK, the problems start when analogue to digital conversion is required.

For example, I connected my Pioneer CLD-2950 to one of the RCA composite video inputs. The 2950 displays a blue screen at power on (or a black screen if 'film mode' is selected). I've tested the output from the AVR to 3 different TVs, using 2 different HDMI cables, and all of them behave as if there's no input signal. Switching output resolution on the AVR may produce a garbled version of the blue screen, or sometimes a multi-coloured pattern, or a mostly green screen. Starting disc playback produces no image until I change momentarily to another input, then switch back again to the LD input. The image may then be displayed normally until I pause LD playback and I get another distorted version of the blue screen as shown below.

Image

Image

Resuming playback results in no picture or on-screen graphics, and I have to switch back and forth from another input before the picture is displayed again. I get the same symptoms whether the LD outputs 50 or 60Hz content. I've also tested with a VHS and the analogue out from a DVD player, with similar erratic results. Curiously the VHS had no problem outputting an image, until I used picture search then the TV appeared to lose sync and display half a screen of white noise. Switching inputs restored the picture again.

I've spoken to the dealer who sold me the AVR and Pioneer UK, both of whom insist they've never heard of this problem before, and neither think the AVR could be at fault. The LD player and other analogue devices have been tested with direct connections to a TV, using the same cables, and found to be working perfectly.

As you can tell I'm completely puzzled by this, and wondered if any of the more technically-minded people on here could offer an explanation? I could ship the AVR back to the dealer but they're threatening to charge if in their opinion it's working OK, although they admit to having no analogue video equipment for testing.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 29 May 2014, 01:37 
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what is the model of your Pio AVR? Have you tried different cables either bought new ones or laying around. It could be the cable..
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 29 May 2014, 03:05 
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It's a European model SC-LX77, which probably has an 'Elite' equivalent in the US. All of the cables were bought brand-new quite recently and are high quality from brands I usually trust. The composite video and audio cables were tested independent from the AVR, as a direct connection to a TV. No problems when the AVR is taken out of the equation. I've also tried 2 different HDMI cables which work fine from my Blu-ray player.

I'm just about to unplug every cable from the AVR, so there's only 1 composite video in, and 1 HDMI out. No audio/speaker cables will be attached during the test. I've already tried different composite inputs and all appear to be the same.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 29 May 2014, 10:54 
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Still no luck. It was exactly the same with only the two cables attached, and tried different composite cables.

I've run out of ideas at this point.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 29 May 2014, 12:45 
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have you looked in the home menu or do a reset of the AVR? I have a VSX1019AHK so in order for me to reset I need to hold the power and enter buttons. I'm not sure about yours but it should be in the manual. those are the only things I can think of. there could be something faulty with the AVR
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 29 May 2014, 13:19 
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Not sure if this helps but I plug my LD player into the back of a DVD recorder via scart and then feed the DVD HDMI output from the DVD recorder into a Denon AV Receiver for output to the LCD TV via HDMI. This seems to work really well and gives the advantage of scaling through the DVD recorder if the AV Receiver has none (although mine does). It also reduces the number of inputs you need to use on the Receiver if you can piggy back on another device like this.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 30 May 2014, 00:10 
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xtempo wrote:
have you looked in the home menu or do a reset of the AVR? I have a VSX1019AHK so in order for me to reset I need to hold the power and enter buttons. I'm not sure about yours but it should be in the manual. those are the only things I can think of. there could be something faulty with the AVR


Yes, it's the same reset procedure for the SC-LX77. I reset numerous times after changing various options in the menus. I've been through the home menu with a fine-tooth comb, and tried every combination of settings I could find for each input. Also tried every option under the 'video conversion' menu, including various different resolution settings.

One of the first things I did after connecting up the AVR was to upgrade the firmware, which I did over a wireless internet connection. This was before tesing the video conversion, so I was wondering if the firmware may have been corrupted. I spoke to Pioneer UK about this, and they told me it's impossible to roll back to a previous version, or even to overwrite the firmware with the same version via USB. If the firmware is corrupt, then the unit is toast.

I could have a faulty unit of course, but it seems unlikely when the product was purchased brand-new, and neither Pioneer nor the dealer have ever heard of this problem before. It's far more likely that the video conversion feature on Pioneer AVRs simply doesn't work properly, and the problem hasn't been reported because so few people use this feature.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 30 May 2014, 00:13 
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laserdisc_fan wrote:
Not sure if this helps but I plug my LD player into the back of a DVD recorder via scart and then feed the DVD HDMI output from the DVD recorder into a Denon AV Receiver for output to the LCD TV via HDMI. This seems to work really well and gives the advantage of scaling through the DVD recorder if the AV Receiver has none (although mine does). It also reduces the number of inputs you need to use on the Receiver if you can piggy back on another device like this.


Thanks for the suggestion. I might look into that idea if I can't find an AVR where the video conversion actually works. I wonder how good Denon and other brands are at implementing this feature?
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 01 Jun 2014, 10:33 
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tony426 wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion. I might look into that idea if I can't find an AVR where the video conversion actually works. I wonder how good Denon and other brands are at implementing this feature?


Before I got the Denon AV Receiver I went through a brief period of using a 1987 Kenwood KA-550 audio amplifier for the sound. This was first amplifier I ever bought when I was student. You know what - it was amazing. As soon as I switched over to the Denon with everything else identical I was disappointed with the sound. It wasn't the same sound anymore - not even close and the Denon was 22 years more up to date (2009) technology and considerably more expensive. I think there is a lot of hype talked about hi-fi and technology in general. Of course I've grown used to the different sound from the Denon after 5 years but I still think whatever audio circuitry components they used in the Kenwood just made it sound far better. The Kenwood has no video input functionality though so I've continued to use the Denon in my setup.

There are many other factors. Before purchasing a JVC LCD (again in 2009) I'd auditioned laserdisc playback through a number of other TVs both at my parents home, brothers home and also in various showrooms. The conclusion I came to back then was there was a massive difference in the out of the box scaling capabilities of current TVs. Samsung might have been the most popular TV brand at the time (in terms of price) but I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole for playback quality of analogue sources. It was terrible. I also tried Sharp (very good), Panasonic (excellent), LG (poor), Sony LCD (good), Sony LED (very good) and JVC LCD (this was the one I liked best). All of these were tested completely independently of any AV Receivers so I could be sure I was testing the capabilities of the TV and nothing else. The scaling done by the JVC was so good that it probably doesn't even need an external scaler even for low quality sources like VHS, never mind laserdisc. This gave me confidence my extensive laserdisc and VHS library would look good no matter what. I'd seen too many modern systems which make VHS unbearable to watch which likely explains why the dump sites are filled with skips of VHS tapes people have thrown out. As mentioned there is scaling being done by a Sony DVD recorder (for DVD and LD playback) and also some scaling done by the Denon AV Receiver before it goes to the JVC LCD however neither of these are truly necessary in my setup as the TV is more than capable of doing all the work itself.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 05 Jun 2014, 19:21 
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Yamaha LD player connected via composite cable for video and digital cable for audio to Yamaha RXV571 receiver. Then I send the signal from the receiver to my Samsung plasma 51" via hdmi. You would not believe the lovely picture it produces.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 06 Jun 2014, 23:01 
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dilb wrote:
Yamaha LD player connected via composite cable for video and digital cable for audio to Yamaha RXV571 receiver. Then I send the signal from the receiver to my Samsung plasma 51" via hdmi. You would not believe the lovely picture it produces.


That's reassuring because I'm hoping to replace the Pioneer with a Yamaha. Pioneer have failed to provide any useful information so far, and I've pretty much given up on them. Sent the Receiver back and just waiting for the dealer to make decision now.

Judging by some of the comments I read at AVS forum, my Pioneer problems are by no means an isolated incident:

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/1448081-official-pioneer-elite-sc-65-sc-1527-k-owners-thread-14.html#post24774055

It seems to be an issue with the Marvell Qdeo video processor used by Pioneer. Unless it can be fixed with a firmware update, then it's useless.

I asked Yamaha what video processor they were using, and it's one they've produced themselves in-house. Even if it wasn't great at scaling that wouldn't be a problem, because my TV has a decent scaler built-in. I just need it to convert analogue to digital without messing up the picture, then I'm happy.


Last edited by tony426 on 28 Aug 2014, 01:12, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 07 Jun 2014, 17:06 
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You should not have any problems with the Yamahas. Have two and both produce a nice picture going through the receiver. Have many friends with a pioneer receiver that warned me about upscaling from composite to HDMI. Lousy picture I was told. Had to try it for myself. More than glad I did. :thumbup: :thumbup:
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2014, 15:13 
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Have my McIntosh MLD 7020 hooked up to my Onkyo TN717 but I run a analog out to my LG 55" tv because HDMI strips the closed captions. I think the picture looks great.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2014, 00:11 
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Just wanted to chime in. If your looking for a good receiver with an excellent video scaler for laserdisc players check out a used Onkyo TX-SR875. It uses a Reon-HQV™ HD video scaler. I project the picture on a large 150" screen and it looks really nice. Still maintains the analog look without any digital artifacts. This was around $2k when it came out but now can be had for a few hundred used. It supports all the modern audio and video codecs so it will work fine with blu-rays.

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-SR875&class=Receiver#images
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 24 Aug 2014, 06:35 
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I have my player, a CLD 97, connected via composite to my Pioneer receiver, an SC-37, then out through HDMI to my 50-inch Panasonic plasma, and have never encountered a problem. LDs look pretty good. A little grainy when I use the zoom feature on the plasma for letterboxed LDs, but not so much to be a distraction. Most 1.33 aspect ratio LDs are almost indistinguishable from DVDs. My Pioneer AVR is about 3 years older than yours, though, and I believe has a different brand video processor.

I have to say, I would have been pretty frustrated if this had happened to me, after shelling out decent money for a newer AVR.
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 03:23 
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dilb wrote:
You should not have any problems with the Yamahas. Have two and both produce a nice picture going through the receiver. Have many friends with a pioneer receiver that warned me about upscaling from composite to HDMI. Lousy picture I was told. Had to try it for myself. More than glad I did. :thumbup: :thumbup:

Thanks for the Yamaha recommendation. I bought an RX-A1030 a few months ago, and all is well again.

More info in this thread:

Problems w/LD players on modern AV receivers
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 10:33 
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Hello Tony, I don't know why I missed your original post. I have Pioneer SC-LX 56 and all is working fine with my Composite in digital conversion, as well with all other inputs on the device. I never encountered any problems. I have to tell all who read that if one uses a modern Pioneer AVR with default Q-deo video processor inside for upscaling/deinterlacing LDs, it might be enough for a smaller 1080p TV, but if one uses a beamer one needs an external device for video processing. I use Crystalio II and I'm happy with it. For a 1080p TV it might be a "god".
What I don't understand is the arrogance of your british sellers. This would have never happened in Switzerland. If you buy something new and it's not working properly (you even have photos of the problem) then it's a defect, end of story. There shouldn't be "we don't know this problem, so it isn't our problem" - Attitude. Just what was that? What kind of a shop it is? They just have to give you another unit! Do you have a consumer protection services in UK or something like that? You bought a lower high end device, not some crappy piece!
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 03 Dec 2014, 13:30 
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seroxx wrote:
What I don't understand is the arrogance of your british sellers. This would have never happened in Switzerland. If you buy something new and it's not working properly (you even have photos of the problem) then it's a defect, end of story. There shouldn't be "we don't know this problem, so it isn't our problem" - Attitude. Just what was that? What kind of a shop it is? They just have to give you another unit! Do you have a consumer protection services in UK or something like that? You bought a lower high end device, not some crappy piece!

I bought the LX-77 from an online store, who also have a high street shop 200 miles from me. They were quite reasonable in the end, but only after I'd quoted consumer law at them and described the product as 'not fit for purpose'. Initially they wanted to send the AVR to Pioneer for investigation, because they admitted not having any analogue equipment available for testing (their problem, not mine). I told them I'd carried out my own investigation and wasn't prepared to wait months for a response from Pioneer on a brand-new product. The dealer issued a refund and I bought the Yamaha from the same place.

It did surprise me that such a basic feature of the Receiver simply didn't work, and that Pioneer released the product to market without testing it properly. I think it just demonstrates how few people are still using analogue equipment, if this issue had never been brought to their attention before. I also asked the reviewers from AV Forums if they'd noticed any problems when reviewing the product, and one of them admitted to not having tested that feature. And this is somebody who expects to be taken seriously as a reviewer!
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 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2015, 08:14 
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invenio wrote:
Just wanted to chime in. If your looking for a good receiver with an excellent video scaler for laserdisc players check out a used Onkyo TX-SR875. It uses a Reon-HQV™ HD video scaler. I project the picture on a large 150" screen and it looks really nice. Still maintains the analog look without any digital artifacts. This was around $2k when it came out but now can be had for a few hundred used. It supports all the modern audio and video codecs so it will work fine with blu-rays.

http://www.onkyousa.com/Products/model.php?m=TX-SR875&class=Receiver#images


Thanks for this! I have a really great Pioneer Elite modern receiver but analog upscaling is horrendous. No s-vid either, only composite. May have to give the Onkyo TX-SR875 or Onkyo TX-SR876 a shot.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Analogue to HDMI Conversion Using an AV Receiver
PostPosted: 11 Jan 2015, 21:18 
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Tony, great news on the RX-A1030. I hear it is a great receiver. Hope you have nothing but good luck with it. Maybe a few screencaps sometime. :thumbup:
  
 
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