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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 01:56 
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disclord wrote:
The lack of response at the 400 line square is shocking... And from the chroma bars, it looks lie there's about 60 or so lines of color. The lack of cross color on the zone plate is excellent though. Faroudja products always have had low chroma resolution because they use his color bandwidth expansion technique which makes it look like more color resolution than it really is. Like in Faroudja equipped DVD players the vertical chroma resolution is only a single field of 120 lines instead of the full 240 lines DVD is capable of.

wait, how did you figure out how much chroma resolution was in there? Those bars at the bottom all looked colored....
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 03:04 
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naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
The lack of response at the 400 line square is shocking... And from the chroma bars, it looks lie there's about 60 or so lines of color. The lack of cross color on the zone plate is excellent though. Faroudja products always have had low chroma resolution because they use his color bandwidth expansion technique which makes it look like more color resolution than it really is. Like in Faroudja equipped DVD players the vertical chroma resolution is only a single field of 120 lines instead of the full 240 lines DVD is capable of.

wait, how did you figure out how much chroma resolution was in there? Those bars at the bottom all looked colored....


On my screen they only appear to have full color at .5 which is 40 lines, and the 1 MHz bars are much more desaturated with red/orange being the predominant color and and the in between bars are gray - the 1.5 MHz bars look basically gray with only the slightest hint of tint and the color bars in between totally gray with no color tint at all. So, it looks like full resolution extends to maybe 60 lines and drops off after that since NTSC is 80 lines per MHz.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 04:00 
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disclord wrote:
naiaru wrote:
disclord wrote:
The lack of response at the 400 line square is shocking... And from the chroma bars, it looks lie there's about 60 or so lines of color. The lack of cross color on the zone plate is excellent though. Faroudja products always have had low chroma resolution because they use his color bandwidth expansion technique which makes it look like more color resolution than it really is. Like in Faroudja equipped DVD players the vertical chroma resolution is only a single field of 120 lines instead of the full 240 lines DVD is capable of.

wait, how did you figure out how much chroma resolution was in there? Those bars at the bottom all looked colored....


On my screen they only appear to have full color at .5 which is 40 lines, and the 1 MHz bars are much more desaturated with red/orange being the predominant color and and the in between bars are gray - the 1.5 MHz bars look basically gray with only the slightest hint of tint and the color bars in between totally gray with no color tint at all. So, it looks like full resolution extends to maybe 60 lines and drops off after that since NTSC is 80 lines per MHz.

oh, so it isn't on or off, you just eyeball it?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 04:34 
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Correct. Since we can still see details when frequency response is down even 6db or more at the top end (they are just softer, less colored or fuzzy) and the quote of 80 horizontal lines per MHz is a close approximation due to the fact that we can see - and hear - frequencies that are not at full level/flat, quoting lines of resolution in an analog video format for color and luma is always an approximation. Now, if only the .5 MHz bars had full color and the others were totally gray, then stating that the color resolution is no more than 40 lines would be totally accurate - and it could be even less if the blue/yellow bars were spread outside their borders. To see what 30 lines of color looks like record that pattern from LaserDisc to VHS. Neither the 1MHz or 1.5MHz bars will have any color at all and the .5 pattern will be fuzzy and smeared.

The SMPTE B/W resolution chart is also an approximation because you have to kinda guess where the lines blend from distinct lines to a total gray background.

BTW, the horizontal lines per MHz for 1080i/P HDTV is 29 lines per MHz and the color is a quarter of that.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 04:55 
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disclord wrote:
Correct. Since we can still see details when frequency response is down even 6db or more at the top end (they are just softer, less colored or fuzzy) and the quote of 80 horizontal lines per MHz is a close approximation due to the fact that we can see - and hear - frequencies that are not at full level/flat, quoting lines of resolution in an analog video format for color and luma is always an approximation. Now, if only the .5 MHz bars had full color and the others were totally gray, then stating that the color resolution is no more than 40 lines would be totally accurate - and it could be even less if the blue/yellow bars were spread outside their borders. To see what 30 lines of color looks like record that pattern from LaserDisc to VHS. Neither the 1MHz or 1.5MHz bars will have any color at all and the .5 pattern will be fuzzy and smeared.

The SMPTE B/W resolution chart is also an approximation because you have to kinda guess where the lines blend from distinct lines to a total gray background.

BTW, the horizontal lines per MHz for 1080i/P HDTV is 29 lines per MHz and the color is a quarter of that.

So does that mean the squares below the 300 and 400 markings test for 300 lines of luma and 400 lines of luma? What is the square right of the 400 one then?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 05:41 
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Yes, but also for measuring comb filter results on diagonals/patterns that can cause interference between Luma and chroma at those frequencies.

As an interesting side note....
NTSC has an excess of diagonal resolution... More than the human eye needs for the horizontal and vertical resolution standard NTSC has. Some of that can be filtered out and extra color detail or more horizontal detail can be interleaved into it almost invisibly.

Here's a link to an explanation of the chart and all it's features
http://www.snellgroup.com/documents/engineering-guides/testchart.pdf
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 13:48 
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disclord wrote:
Yes, but also for measuring comb filter results on diagonals/patterns that can cause interference between Luma and chroma at those frequencies.

As an interesting side note....
NTSC has an excess of diagonal resolution... More than the human eye needs for the horizontal and vertical resolution standard NTSC has. Some of that can be filtered out and extra color detail or more horizontal detail can be interleaved into it almost invisibly.

Here's a link to an explanation of the chart and all it's features
http://www.snellgroup.com/documents/engineering-guides/testchart.pdf

I've never seen that many vertical bars for the chroma frequency response test.

TLK :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 26 May 2012, 19:56 
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lizardkingjr wrote:
disclord wrote:
Yes, but also for measuring comb filter results on diagonals/patterns that can cause interference between Luma and chroma at those frequencies.

As an interesting side note....
NTSC has an excess of diagonal resolution... More than the human eye needs for the horizontal and vertical resolution standard NTSC has. Some of that can be filtered out and extra color detail or more horizontal detail can be interleaved into it almost invisibly.

Here's a link to an explanation of the chart and all it's features
http://www.snellgroup.com/documents/engineering-guides/testchart.pdf

I've never seen that many vertical bars for the chroma frequency response test.

TLK :cool:


Do you mean the .5, 1.0 and 1.5MHz chroma bars? Or do you mean the actual results you have achieved with various comb filters?

Chapter 55 of the THX box set of The Abyss has some extensive chroma response tests, but I've never seen a list of the frequencies that each set of color bars represents. I wish THX would have published a document about each test pattern on the disc - which BTW, is the only THX film to have full-field test patterns. They were used by THX for testing LaserDisc pressing plants and for coming up with the requirements for the THX LaserDisc player certification. Sadly, they never released any info on what kind of performance characteristics they were looking for from a player to achieve certification. To my knowledge only one article/interview with THX ever appeared about the THX LaserDisc player program - and that was in Widescreen Review and it's not very informative. Still, I should scan it and make a PDF for posting.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 28 May 2012, 12:18 
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disclord wrote:
Do you mean the .5, 1.0 and 1.5MHz chroma bars? Or do you mean the actual results you have achieved with various comb filters?

Chapter 55 of the THX box set of The Abyss has some extensive chroma response tests, but I've never seen a list of the frequencies that each set of color bars represents. I wish THX would have published a document about each test pattern on the disc - which BTW, is the only THX film to have full-field test patterns. They were used by THX for testing LaserDisc pressing plants and for coming up with the requirements for the THX LaserDisc player certification. Sadly, they never released any info on what kind of performance characteristics they were looking for from a player to achieve certification. To my knowledge only one article/interview with THX ever appeared about the THX LaserDisc player program - and that was in Widescreen Review and it's not very informative. Still, I should scan it and make a PDF for posting.

0.5 = 5 vertical bars on the VE LD, not 9 from your pdf link.
1.0 = 3 vertical bars, not 9.
1.5 = 5 vertical bars, not 13.

TLK :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 13 Jun 2012, 01:36 
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So I just got a Panasonic DMR-E20 and it looks very sleek, but it's about the same as the DMR-E80H (maybe a tad better). There is still very thin lines of rainbowing at the top boxes and there is still rainbowing when the circle pattern stops, but only ever so slightly, you have to be within reaching distance of the display to see it.

I figure there isn't a comb filter that keeps full chroma resolution and never rainbows ever, but short of that, does anyone know of a comb filter that gets good chroma response and shows good response (doesn't blur) and no rainbows in the top two boxes of the S&W pattern?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 17 Oct 2012, 15:01 
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When I am playing my CLD-505 through my Toshiba DVD recorder and to my Samsung TV I get a color line that scrolls up the screen after about 20 min or so of play. Does anyone know what would cause this?

thanks
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012, 19:50 
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Looking through DVD Recorders on CL, found this Phillips Model . . .

DVDR-615

. . . didn't really think much of it at first, but then I noticed that it had a component input:

Image

I had thought that to keep people from making hi-quality copies of things, that they didn't include component inputs on DVD recorders?

Anyone have any experience with this recorder?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2012, 20:16 
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my pioneer has component.
but when you try to copy lets say a DVD from another deck it won't allow, there is some type of chip inside the
recorder that won't allow you to do it.

also in the past i had some home movies that were recorded onto old tapes that we found, when i tried to copy
them it wouldn't let me since there was copy protection on the VHS but it had been recorded over.
so i lost a few tapes like that
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2013, 22:49 
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Having bought a few more DVD-recorders, I've discovered that not too many of them have decent comb filters.

Got a NIB Panasonic DMR-ES25 for $40 off of CL recently. None too impressed with the filter therein. Rainbows aplenty.

Then got a NIB Toshiba D-RW2 for $40 off of CL. Still lots of rainbows from that one, but the color resolution is a lot better, and almost no dot crawl.

So far out of all the DVD-recorders that I've used, the Toshiba DV-R600 (DVD/VCR combo) that my mother has at her place has the best comb filter. Good color resolution and really cuts into the cross-color artifacting.

Hoping to find a Toshiba D-R400 which is the same unit as the DV-R600 but without the VCR portion. I have found a D-R420 and a D-R430 NIB for cheap, but I'm afraid that in trying to make a cheaper unit with their newer models, they may have used a less comb filter in those.

Don't suppose anyone has any experience with those units?
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2013, 00:51 
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Hello,

Wouldn't it be helpful to start an overview thread of units with good comb filters and/or with the ability to decode NTSC Super Color ? Just like the overview of all units with AC3-RF input?

I think that would support all the LD collectors / fans / otakus to find the right unit for getting decent results instead of trial and error a dozen times.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2013, 01:02 
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The Panasonic DMR-E20 has an excellent 3D adaptive comb filter that can be switched to 2D in the setup menu. The comb filter has full 5.5 MHz luminance bandwidth and just about the full 120 lines of chroma resolution, plus an EXCELLENT full frame TBC. Set at its fixed 60 minute 9mbps MPEG-2 rate, it makes beautiful copies of LaserDisc's. Standard Audio recording is Dolby Digital at 224kbps at all video bitrates, and is audibly transparent. It's only drawback is the audio levels are automatically set - there is no manual audio level control. But, I've never encountered any audio compression or problems recording LaserDisc's.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2013, 01:26 
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disclord wrote:
The Panasonic DMR-E20 has an excellent 3D adaptive comb filter that can be switched to 2D in the setup menu. The comb filter has full 5.5 MHz luminance bandwidth and just about the full 120 lines of chroma resolution, plus an EXCELLENT full frame TBC. Set at its fixed 60 minute 9mbps MPEG-2 rate, it makes beautiful copies of LaserDisc's. Standard Audio recording is Dolby Digital at 224kbps at all video bitrates, and is audibly transparent. It's only drawback is the audio levels are automatically set - there is no manual audio level control. But, I've never encountered any audio compression or problems recording LaserDisc's.

Yeah, I second the DMR-E20. I'd still be using it if it didn't have that compatibility problem with Panasonic players.

I'd also second what was said about the Toshiba D-RW2. It has good color resolution and isn't too bad with dot crawl, but it's pretty bad with rainbowing, even for a 2D comb filter.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2013, 16:15 
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I have a Toshiba DR430 and it does a great job of upconverting to my Samsung LCD.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2013, 16:18 
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laser_cinema wrote:
Hello,

Wouldn't it be helpful to start an overview thread of units with good comb filters and/or with the ability to decode NTSC Super Color ? Just like the overview of all units with AC3-RF input?

I think that would support all the LD collectors / fans / otakus to find the right unit for getting decent results instead of trial and error a dozen times.

Well, I can give a run down of the recorders I've used to start.

Panasonic DMR-EZ48V(PK) DVD/VCR Recorder Combo: nothing special as far as comb filters go. It does have very nice closed caption capabilities though (can change colors of the captions, can make the background of the captions--which are usually black--transparent or invisible) so that's still useful to LD owners.

Panasonic DMR-ES25: Decent 3D comb filter. Does very well with dot crawl and does fairly well in downgrading cross-color.

Toshiba DV-R600 DVD/VCR Recorder Combo: Very nice 3D comb filter. Really cuts down the cross-color and dot crawl. Color resolution is good too. The equivalent DVD-only recorder D-R400 should have the same filter (will confirm once I get one of those models.)

Toshiba D-R2: not much help on the cross-color but very good dot-crawl reduction and color resolution.

Toshiba DV-R620 DVD/VCR combo - nice colors and does pretty well with dot-crawl, but ineffective against cross color. About the same performance as the Toshiba D-R2 (possibly the same filter?)

I also have a Phillips Recorder that I've had sitting on a shelf for a while (got it from a family member not too long ago) that I'll check when I get home.


Last edited by elahrairrah on 04 Nov 2013, 21:02, edited 3 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2013, 16:24 
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rbf18270 wrote:
I have a Toshiba DR430 and it does a great job of upconverting to my Samsung LCD.

Every try running your LD player through and seeing what kind of picture improvements it offers? Don't suppose you have a disc of Video Essentials?
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