LaserDisc Database :: View topic - DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters

Okay, I have to take that back about the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (and possibly about the DMR-E48V as well.) I was using a CLD-D605 for those tests. I guess those D60X players have really, REALLY noisy designs? I tried the ES25 again with my Panasonic LX-900, and had much better results.

Cross-color artifacts almost completely disappeared when using the S&W test pattern and the orb stopped moving. Good with the colors and dot-crawl as well.

Does the picture flash or blink at all?

Made a gif of the Snell & Wilcox moving orb through the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (using Panasonic LX-900u.

(click to open page with gif)

So it's a pretty good filter as you can see. Doesn't completely get rid of cross-color, but still reduces it pretty well. Also nice colors.

I'll try to do one of the Toshiba D-RW2 soon.

Would anything like this be better than a CRT's filter? I'm intrigued by the RCA recorder for both LD and VHS having component/s-video outs.

FYI: For anyone interested in trying the Toshiba DR430- the 3D comb filter (if it's in there) is absolutely awful. Snell & Wilcox rainbows terribly even when not moving. Now, the color correction and upscaling on it 's pretty good.

Now, I really like how the DVR600 performs. It does good color correction, upscaling and S&W shows rainbows only when moving. They can be had pretty cheap on ebay now too.

Has anyone compared the LD version of that Snell & Wilcox pattern with the DVD version? Basically I'm wondering if I can cheap out and avoid buying the VE LD when I already have the (HD) DVD combo disc to test.

elahrairrah: The US model of the Panasonic DMR-ES10 (P/PC?) seems to have the same great comb filter as the US model of the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (P/PC?).

According to the service manuals, they both use the developed-in-house Panasonic C1AB00001979 for comb filtering.

DMR-ES10 (P/PC) Service Manual: http://www.tgohome.com/ServiceManuals/P ... BSM%5D.pdf
DMR-ES25 (P/PC) Service Manual: http://www.encompassparts.com/shop/rese ... MRES25.pdf

Do you think "PC" stands for Canada?

Yeah, but you should still get it for calibration.

naiaru wrote:

Yeah, but you should still get it for calibration.

I've got "A Video Standard" and I haven't ventured into AC3 or DTS at all. So that should suffice, I hope?

Author:	rbf18270 [ 18 Jan 2013, 19:57 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
I do have my Pioneer CLD-505 and Panasonic Prism player running through and it looks very good. I do not have a Video Essentials disc to tweak everything but the picture looks pretty good as is and you can pick up the Toshiba DVD recorder fairly cheap online. I don't really use the Toshiba for anything other than the upconvert so I can't comment on it as a player or recorder.

Author:	elahrairrah [ 21 Jan 2013, 01:21 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
Okay, I have to take that back about the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (and possibly about the DMR-E48V as well.) I was using a CLD-D605 for those tests. I guess those D60X players have really, REALLY noisy designs? I tried the ES25 again with my Panasonic LX-900, and had much better results. Cross-color artifacts almost completely disappeared when using the S&W test pattern and the orb stopped moving. Good with the colors and dot-crawl as well.

Author:	naiaru [ 21 Jan 2013, 01:31 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
elahrairrah wrote: Okay, I have to take that back about the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (and possibly about the DMR-E48V as well.) I was using a CLD-D605 for those tests. I guess those D60X players have really, REALLY noisy designs? I tried the ES25 again with my Panasonic LX-900, and had much better results. Cross-color artifacts almost completely disappeared when using the S&W test pattern and the orb stopped moving. Good with the colors and dot-crawl as well. Does the picture flash or blink at all?

Author:	elahrairrah [ 21 Jan 2013, 02:07 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
naiaru wrote: Does the picture flash or blink at all? Don't think I've ever come across that, so no on this. That being said, it still isn't as good as the comb filter in the WEGA KV-40XBR800. No artifacting at all in the boxes surrounding the orb, and the rainbows disappear completely when it stops. I wonder if any of the Sony DVD recorders used that comb filter?

Author:	elahrairrah [ 30 Jan 2013, 06:44 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
Made a gif of the Snell & Wilcox moving orb through the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (using Panasonic LX-900u. (click to open page with gif) So it's a pretty good filter as you can see. Doesn't completely get rid of cross-color, but still reduces it pretty well. Also nice colors. I'll try to do one of the Toshiba D-RW2 soon.

LaserDisc Database https://forum.lddb.com/

DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=562	Page 4 of 17

Author:	lizardkingjr [ 30 Jan 2013, 17:26 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
elahrairrah wrote: Made a gif of the Snell & Wilcox moving orb through the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (using Panasonic LX-900u. (click to open page with gif) So it's a pretty good filter as you can see. Doesn't completely get rid of cross-color, but still reduces it pretty well. Also nice colors. I'll try to do one of the Toshiba D-RW2 soon. Very nice idea. I think I'll do the same with my new Onkyo NR-818. TLK

Author:	sdraper [ 30 Jan 2013, 22:47 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
Would anything like this be better than a CRT's filter? I'm intrigued by the RCA recorder for both LD and VHS having component/s-video outs.

Author:	elahrairrah [ 30 Jan 2013, 23:12 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
sdraper wrote: Would anything like this be better than a CRT's filter? I'm intrigued by the RCA recorder for both LD and VHS having component/s-video outs. Depends on the CRT. Like I mentioned before, the comb filter in my KV-40XBR800 does an absolutely amazing job with both dot crawl and cross-color (rainbow effect.) When feeding the LX-900u to it via composite, the only cross-color that shows up is when the S&W orb is moving. Once it stops, no artifacting whatsoever anywhere on the screen. Using the comb filter my parents KV-32FS120, it's not as good. The artifacting is hardly affected at all. I'm just being more experimental now because of the knowledge that Disclord dropped with he color tests in the S&W test pattern. I don't recall the S&W color tests being fully realized when using the internal filter on the KV-40XBR800 (perhaps in turning back the cross-color artifacting, color reproduction is affected?) Look at the color test bars in the bottom of the screen for that RCA DVD recorder snapshot . . . Then look at the color test bars in the gif I posted earlier, and you'll see the difference. Some of the comb filters in these DVD Recorders give better colors while doing a decent job with artifacting. So I like to experiment a bit.

Author:	aluecke87 [ 17 Feb 2013, 07:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
FYI: For anyone interested in trying the Toshiba DR430- the 3D comb filter (if it's in there) is absolutely awful. Snell & Wilcox rainbows terribly even when not moving. Now, the color correction and upscaling on it 's pretty good. Now, I really like how the DVR600 performs. It does good color correction, upscaling and S&W shows rainbows only when moving. They can be had pretty cheap on ebay now too.

Author:	naiaru [ 17 Feb 2013, 08:36 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
reject902 wrote: FYI: For anyone interested in trying the Toshiba DR430- the 3D comb filter (if it's in there) is absolutely awful. Snell & Wilcox rainbows terribly even when not moving. Now, the color correction and upscaling on it 's pretty good. Now, I really like how the DVR600 performs. It does good color correction, upscaling and S&W shows rainbows only when moving. They can be had pretty cheap on ebay now too. Thanks for the heads up. I was actually looking at them on eBay just now.

Author:	disclord [ 17 Feb 2013, 16:49 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
Unless the signal was pre-filtered when encoding to NTSC, it's pretty much impossible to eliminate the rainbows on the zone plate circle when it's moving - that's because with movement the Luma and chroma no longer interlace and so cannot be seperated. The only way to reduce the rianbows is by filtering which destroys resolution in the picture. So the moving circle should always have rainbows - better comb filters will reduce them somewhat, but they can't be eliminated. Now, when the circle is still, they should disappear if the 3D comb is doing its job - or if it's a 2D comb with Faroudja-type cross-color processing (which the VP-100 does not have).

Author:	msgohan [ 20 Feb 2013, 05:40 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
Has anyone compared the LD version of that Snell & Wilcox pattern with the DVD version? Basically I'm wondering if I can cheap out and avoid buying the VE LD when I already have the (HD) DVD combo disc to test.

Author:	disclord [ 20 Feb 2013, 05:52 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
msgohan wrote: Has anyone compared the LD version of that Snell & Wilcox pattern with the DVD version? Basically I'm wondering if I can cheap out and avoid buying the VE LD when I already have the (HD) DVD combo disc to test. If you use the RCA NTSC composite out of your DVD player you can use the zone plate test on the DVD to test external comb filters - but you can't check the internal comb filter or the chroma/luma resolution your LaserDisc player outputs

Author:	naiaru [ 20 Feb 2013, 08:00 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
msgohan wrote: Has anyone compared the LD version of that Snell & Wilcox pattern with the DVD version? Basically I'm wondering if I can cheap out and avoid buying the VE LD when I already have the (HD) DVD combo disc to test. Yeah, but you should still get it for calibration.

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Author:	signofzeta [ 20 Feb 2013, 08:51 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
I have two brand new JVC DR-MV150B units in my basement. Does anyone know if these are supposed to be any good? I'm too lazy to check myself, mostly because my setup is almost perfect right now.

Author:	acuozzo [ 20 Feb 2013, 16:27 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
elahrairrah: The US model of the Panasonic DMR-ES10 (P/PC?) seems to have the same great comb filter as the US model of the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (P/PC?). According to the service manuals, they both use the developed-in-house Panasonic C1AB00001979 for comb filtering. DMR-ES10 (P/PC) Service Manual: http://www.tgohome.com/ServiceManuals/P ... BSM%5D.pdf DMR-ES25 (P/PC) Service Manual: http://www.encompassparts.com/shop/rese ... MRES25.pdf Do you think "PC" stands for Canada?

Author:	elahrairrah [ 20 Feb 2013, 16:48 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
acuozzo wrote: elahrairrah: The US model of the Panasonic DMR-ES10 (P/PC?) seems to have the same great comb filter as the US model of the Panasonic DMR-ES25 (P/PC?). According to the service manuals, they both use the developed-in-house Panasonic C1AB00001979 for comb filtering. DMR-ES10 (P/PC) Service Manual: http://www.tgohome.com/ServiceManuals/P ... BSM%5D.pdf DMR-ES25 (P/PC) Service Manual: http://www.encompassparts.com/shop/rese ... MRES25.pdf Do you think "PC" stands for Canada? Yup, I had to amend my review of the ES25 DVD recorder when I tried it with another LD player. Much better results. I'm hoping to get a DMR-ES45V (the same model as the ES25, but with a VCR as well) to see if it has the closed captioning capabilities that the E48-VK has, but with the better comb filter (the E48VK filter is crap.) Dunno about the PC though. I checked Canadian Panasonic site. DMR series of recorders do not end with PC or C.

Author:	msgohan [ 20 Feb 2013, 17:24 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
naiaru wrote: Yeah, but you should still get it for calibration. I've got "A Video Standard" and I haven't ventured into AC3 or DTS at all. So that should suffice, I hope?

Author:	disclord [ 20 Feb 2013, 17:41 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
msgohan wrote: naiaru wrote: Yeah, but you should still get it for calibration. I've got "A Video Standard" and I haven't ventured into AC3 or DTS at all. So that should suffice, I hope? Video Standards only problem is that it has nothing comparable to the Snell & Wilcox zone plate pattern that tests a players or comb filter's color resolution, diagonal resolution and cross color artifacts.

Author:	elahrairrah [ 20 Feb 2013, 17:43 ]
Post subject:	Re: DVD Recorders with 3D Comb Filters
I don't think AVS has the Snell & Wilcox test plate. I have it at home and I'll pop it in to see, but going by these equipment reviews that mention both AVS and VE, they only refer to VE when it comes to the S&WTP: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4 ... ja100.html http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_6 ... iscan.html