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 Post subject: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 21:08 
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I know this is a 21** series thread, but I have a question that affects both of my units

So this is my chain:
x9->composit->2144->hdmi->algolith mosquito HDMI->hdmi->4242-> sony Bravia 55x850D 4k TV with HDCP 2.2

What's happening is when I FF or RW on either of my 3 laserdisc players, I lose signal to the TV. Sometimes I can get audio back by turning off the Lumagen units, but usually never the video unless I inplug a plug and plug it back in.

what I've tried:
x9 into 2144 into TV via HDMI. This problem still persists, but not nearly as bad as with the 4242 in the chain. I'll lose signal with ONLY the 2144 but it usually comes back within a second of FF, RW, or disc changing sides. I've tested this on all 3 players and the same result

x9 into 2144 into 4242 HDMI out to TV. Same issue, but I lose complete video signal

Tried N64 instead of x9 LD player but same issue, only I can't really play games

Tried a DVD player and this works just fine, even with composite

Replaced all cords with high quality, 4k certified cords

Tried a fosman splitter for HDCP stripping but either it doesn't strip HDCP or it simply didn't work

I turned off HDCP on both outputs but this didn't work

Tried messing with the genlock and this didn't work


Anyone have any idea? If it's a handshake issue, would a different TV work better? I don't know why it would, though. My TV is HDCP 2.2 and so are the lumagen units. Oh, and on top of this, I tried changing the Lumagen units to 1.x instead of 2.2 for HDCP. Also didn't work.

Thanks guys
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 23:05 
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Troubleshooting Droupouts and Still Frame Jitter

Read this topic.

You need to remove all devices and go straight from the LD to the TV and see if it happens, then start adding.

All need to remember that LD players were meant to go either straight from player to TV or from player to AV receiver then to TV
and not with 1 or 2 other devices inbetween.

Going from LD to 2144 to ALGO to 4242 to your TV.
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 17 Jul 2019, 23:13 
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rein-o wrote:
Troubleshooting Droupouts and Still Frame Jitter

Read this topic.

You need to remove all devices and go straight from the LD to the TV and see if it happens, then start adding.

All need to remember that LD players were meant to go either straight from player to TV or from player to AV receiver then to TV
and not with 1 or 2 other devices inbetween.

Going from LD to 2144 to ALGO to 4242 to your TV.


The player works just fine directly into the TV, so I think it has something to do with the HDMI
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 01:32 
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This happens with analog devices. When you skip or scan tracks the player’s sync isn’t %100 perfect and it’s confusing new stuff that normally sees way better clocks. It may get better or worse with other players (DVLs perhaps) but it’s not really an “issue” or a problem and you’re never going to really fix it. CRTs were immune to this phenomenon so it wasn’t addressed in the player’s original era. When you play an LD you’re sending a NTSC video signal that comes from the disc playing. When you pause to a blue screen or if you scan using Trick Play the player is essentially unhooking the LD side and is switching to a chip generated signal. Your boxes see this interruption and wig out for no reason but that’s what stuff like that does. You for sure wasted a lot of money and tried a lot of things but it’s unfixable.

Now, don’t you feel better? Now that you can relax?

Btw, there is a “fix” for this “problem” which is to use some sort of drop out compensator. TV stations always had them back in the day. They are big and heavy and smell like 30 year old dust so you may not care. The time base correctors sold as the DPS...whatever they are called, from Leitec or whenever. Those would probably prevent this.
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 02:05 
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You know, when I was thinking of getting into CED they had the same issues with sync on playback, but this was before any scalers or
filters.

You are just getting to the end of ancient electronic tech blending with newer tech.
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 02:12 
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signofzeta wrote:
This happens with analog devices. When you skip or scan tracks the player’s sync isn’t %100 perfect and it’s confusing new stuff that normally sees way better clocks. It may get better or worse with other players (DVLs perhaps) but it’s not really an “issue” or a problem and you’re never going to really fix it. CRTs were immune to this phenomenon so it wasn’t addressed in the player’s original era. When you play an LD you’re sending a NTSC video signal that comes from the disc playing. When you pause to a blue screen or if you scan using Trick Play the player is essentially unhooking the LD side and is switching to a chip generated signal. Your boxes see this interruption and wig out for no reason but that’s what stuff like that does. You for sure wasted a lot of money and tried a lot of things but it’s unfixable.

Now, don’t you feel better? Now that you can relax?

Btw, there is a “fix” for this “problem” which is to use some sort of drop out compensator. TV stations always had them back in the day. They are big and heavy and smell like 30 year old dust so you may not care. The time base correctors sold as the DPS...whatever they are called, from Leitec or whenever. Those would probably prevent this.


I feel great, thanks! I know some other people with either the exact same setup or similar setups who don't have issues, so I guess they're just the lucky ones
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 07:24 
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Zeta is 100% right re the sync issue.

I get essentially the same thing sometimes with FF/RW, side changes or coming out of pause.
Used to happen X9 > Duo > TV/Projector
Still happens X9 > 2144 > TV/Projector or X9 > Duo > Mosquito > 2144 > TV/Projector

Difference is everything re-syncs, handshakes and always get a picture & sound back within about a second, with both the shorter or longer chain. The projector must be slower to handshake as it always takes longer with that than the TV. Also will take a little longer if the Lumagen is doing some heavier processing (like converting to 24fps).

Why your setup is not recovering is a bit of a mystery, it's easy to say handshake issue but likely to be frustrating to try to solve.

Zeta's suggestion of the Leitech DPS type units might stop it happening in the first place; plenty of threads on those to read here.

Also I think Substance has used a very similar chain to you without problem. He might be able to offer some suggestions??
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 18 Jul 2019, 17:49 
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audioboyz1973 wrote:
Zeta is 100% right re the sync issue.

I get essentially the same thing sometimes with FF/RW, side changes or coming out of pause.
Used to happen X9 > Duo > TV/Projector
Still happens X9 > 2144 > TV/Projector or X9 > Duo > Mosquito > 2144 > TV/Projector

Difference is everything re-syncs, handshakes and always get a picture & sound back within about a second, with both the shorter or longer chain. The projector must be slower to handshake as it always takes longer with that than the TV. Also will take a little longer if the Lumagen is doing some heavier processing (like converting to 24fps).

Why your setup is not recovering is a bit of a mystery, it's easy to say handshake issue but likely to be frustrating to try to solve.

Zeta's suggestion of the Leitech DPS type units might stop it happening in the first place; plenty of threads on those to read here.

Also I think Substance has used a very similar chain to you without problem. He might be able to offer some suggestions??


So yeah, with my 2144, the sync is the same as your setup where it comes back within a second. It has something to do with the 4242 and I can't figure it out! I asked substance and he said he would get back to me, which I hope he does, because he uses the same stuff! Minus the Mosquito. I'm hoping it's my TV, I really am.
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 19 Jul 2019, 14:08 
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You made me power up my LD setup after like a good 8 months of no use :)

Here is my current setup:

HLD-X0(composite) - Radiance 2144(genlock auto) - Radiance 4449 (9Ghz input, 18 Ghz output, genlock off) - Sony XBR-A1E 65” OLED (18 Ghz input)


I used Star Trek : Borg Collective, disk 2 for the test.

I played the disc for 20 mins uninterrupted to warm up the system then tried pause, FF and RW.

Pause and play immediately works perfect, video resumes with sound. If I pause and play several times repeatedly then I lose the signal for a second or two (black screen) then video and sound resumes.

FF and RW works fine if I click the button for a second or less ( a few frame FF or RW), if I hold the button down for more than a second for continuous FF or RW for many frames) then I lose the signal up to 3 or 4 seconds (black screen again) then video and sound resumes normal. My player is single side only so I can’t test side changes.

I turned off genlock on 2144 (4449 was already off). I tried the same test above and lost picture after a couple seconds of FF and it never resumed again, I had to power cycle the 2144. I tried genlock on 4449 and 2144 and it was the same outcome.

I recommend genlock auto on 2144 for sure. 4449 genlock on or off didn’t change anything. I keep mine off.

To be honest, I never really used FF or RW ever before. I simply start the disc and play to the end. With the above settings, losing the picture for a second while FF and RW isn’t bad in my opinion.

ADV7800 chipset in 2144 already has a frame based TBC, weak, poor time base, nonstandard signal support. Adding another device wouldn’t help it. The issue is in the dropped frames that occur during FF and RW which cause clock changes on the HDMI. Up to a second FF and RW seems to be within the compensation of the genlock function on the 2144 but not anything beyond.

I and some others had issues on 4449 on earlier firmware with genlock(which was ported from the older Radiance), especially on Sony Tv/projectors ( and some other brand). Newer 4K displays with HDMI 2.0 are a lot more picky with the clock changes and have difficulty handling dropped frames which causes these clock changes. Lumagen rewrote the genlock code on the 4xxxx models to handle this and it works great now.

For 2144 to work right with the issues you are having, they would likely have to re-write the genlock for the older Radiance units. I can tell you this is extremely unlikely to happen. The new Radiance Pro and older Radiance units are on different codes, it isn’t easy to port codes between them. It would take major effort to write new code for 2144 and it makes no financial sense on a discontinued product.

Try genlock auto on 2144 and report, let’s go from there.
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 Post subject: Re: Issue with mostly my 4242, but also my 2144
PostPosted: 23 Jul 2019, 00:47 
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substance wrote:
You made me power up my LD setup after like a good 8 months of no use :)

Here is my current setup:

HLD-X0(composite) - Radiance 2144(genlock auto) - Radiance 4449 (9Ghz input, 18 Ghz output, genlock off) - Sony XBR-A1E 65” OLED (18 Ghz input)


I used Star Trek : Borg Collective, disk 2 for the test.

I played the disc for 20 mins uninterrupted to warm up the system then tried pause, FF and RW.

Pause and play immediately works perfect, video resumes with sound. If I pause and play several times repeatedly then I lose the signal for a second or two (black screen) then video and sound resumes.

FF and RW works fine if I click the button for a second or less ( a few frame FF or RW), if I hold the button down for more than a second for continuous FF or RW for many frames) then I lose the signal up to 3 or 4 seconds (black screen again) then video and sound resumes normal. My player is single side only so I can’t test side changes.

I turned off genlock on 2144 (4449 was already off). I tried the same test above and lost picture after a couple seconds of FF and it never resumed again, I had to power cycle the 2144. I tried genlock on 4449 and 2144 and it was the same outcome.

I recommend genlock auto on 2144 for sure. 4449 genlock on or off didn’t change anything. I keep mine off.

To be honest, I never really used FF or RW ever before. I simply start the disc and play to the end. With the above settings, losing the picture for a second while FF and RW isn’t bad in my opinion.

ADV7800 chipset in 2144 already has a frame based TBC, weak, poor time base, nonstandard signal support. Adding another device wouldn’t help it. The issue is in the dropped frames that occur during FF and RW which cause clock changes on the HDMI. Up to a second FF and RW seems to be within the compensation of the genlock function on the 2144 but not anything beyond.

I and some others had issues on 4449 on earlier firmware with genlock(which was ported from the older Radiance), especially on Sony Tv/projectors ( and some other brand). Newer 4K displays with HDMI 2.0 are a lot more picky with the clock changes and have difficulty handling dropped frames which causes these clock changes. Lumagen rewrote the genlock code on the 4xxxx models to handle this and it works great now.

For 2144 to work right with the issues you are having, they would likely have to re-write the genlock for the older Radiance units. I can tell you this is extremely unlikely to happen. The new Radiance Pro and older Radiance units are on different codes, it isn’t easy to port codes between them. It would take major effort to write new code for 2144 and it makes no financial sense on a discontinued product.

Try genlock auto on 2144 and report, let’s go from there.


Man, you are awesome! I'll be trying this tonight and I'll report back with the findings
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