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 Post subject: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 22 Sep 2016, 19:22 
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(Julien's edits in blue, I believe substance's list is from http://www.dutchaudioclassics.nl/the_complete_d_a_dac_converter_list/?)

Model - DAC - Digital Filter - Transport Mechanism

Pioneer

CLD-77 - 1 x PCM56P
CLD-79 - 2 x SAA7350GP - PD0116A
CLD-95 - 2 x AD1862N-P - SM5813AP - VWY1019
CLD-97 - 2 x SAA7350GP - SM5813AP
CLD-98 - 2 x SAA7350GP - SM5813AP
CLD-99S - 2 x PCM56P-J - SM5807EP - VWY1011
CLD-100 - LC7881 - SM5807EP
CLD-D504 - 1 x PD2026B
CLD-600 - 1 x SAA7350
CLD-757 - 2 x SAA7350GP - PD0116A
CLD-D580 - 1 x PD2026B
CLD-900 - 1 x CX20017
CLD-919 - 2 x AD1862N-P - SM5813AP - VWY1019
CLD-D925 - 1 x TC9400F
CLD-939 - 2 x SAA7350GP - SM5813AP
CLD-950 - PD2026B
CLD-959 - 2 x SAA7350GP - SM5813AP
CLD-1070 - 1x LC7881 - SM5807EP
CLD-1400 - 2 x AD1860N
CLD-1450 - 2 x AD1860N
CLD-1500 - 2 x AD1860N - PD0050
CLD-1700 - PD2026A - CXD2500
CLD-1850 - PD2026B
CLD-1950 - PD2026B
CLD-2080 - 1 x SM5860BF - SM5840AP - VWY1019
CLD-V2400 - 1x TC9237N
CLD-3030 - 2 x PCM56P-J - SM5807EP
CLD-3070 - 1x LC7881
CLD-3080 - 2 x AD1860N-K VWY1019
CLD-3760KV - 1 x TC9400F
CLD-9000 - 1 x CX20017
CLD-HF9G - 2 x SAA7350GP
DVL-909 - 1 x PD2029AM
DVL-919 - 1 x PE8001A described as Pioneer re-badging of Burr-Brown PCM1716 (24-bit/96KHz, mid-range)
DVL-S9 - 1 x PD2029AM
LD-V8000 - 1 x LC7881-C
LD-S2 - 2 x MB40778
LD-S9 - 2 x SAA7350GP - PD0116A
LD-X1 (not sure US or JPN) - 2 x PCM58P-K - VWY1020
HLD-X9 - 2 x PCM1702P (20-bit high-end Burr-Brown)
HLD-X0 - 2 x PCM1702P-K (20-bit high-end Burr-Brown)

McIntosh

MLD-7020 - 2 x SAA7350GP - SM5813AP

Philips

CDV-488/487 - TDA1541A-S1
CDV-496 - TDA1541A - SAA7220P/B - TDA1542 - CDM-10
LDP600WS = 2 x SAA7312

Denon

LA-3500 - 2 x PCM61P

Onkyo

DV-X500 - 1 x PD2026B

Panasonic

LX-200PEX - 2 x PCM61P

Yamaha

CDV-S100 - 2 x PCM56P-J
CDV-W901 - 1 x PD2026B


Last edited by substance on 12 Dec 2017, 01:03, edited 1 time in total. _________________
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 05:12 
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Thanks you for the list and your hard work. Now, which one is your favorite?
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 12:32 
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PCM1704 by burr brown in my opinion is the best dac chip ever manufactured. It's based on the PCM1702 chip found in the X9 and X0.

TDA1541A in the Philips players are also well known in the audiophile community.

Unfortunately X9 and X0 don't play CDs so I will have to go with the Philips machines.
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 20:48 
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I currently have my eyes on a couple of Magnavox CD players with the TDA1541A DAC. I would like to compare one of them to my CLD-95.
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 21:09 
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bguzman wrote:
I currently have my eyes on a couple of Magnavox CD players with the TDA1541A DAC. I would like to compare one of them to my CLD-95.



Philips CDV-488 is an interesting machine. It is from the Marantz/Philips era so the build quality is great. It has the TDA1541A chips in single crown select version. It has a switch in the front that allows you to choose between an analog CCD based processing or digital tbc/comb filter processing. Per Kurtis, its noise levels are comparable to CLD-95/97 but its a single sided player. Man you should see its remote control!!! It's sick!!!
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2016, 22:39 
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I upgraded my CDV-488 adding the extra caps to the DAC weighting, put in a better op amp, upgraded the bridge diodes in the power supply to fast settling ones to lower the sound floor and balanced the output so I could remove the decoupling capacitor. Has a much warmer sound than the 97/99/704 or other bit-stream DAC players. Still use it in the bedroom.
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 24 Sep 2016, 14:45 
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krbahr wrote:
I upgraded my CDV-488 adding the extra caps to the DAC weighting, put in a better op amp, upgraded the bridge diodes in the power supply to fast settling ones to lower the sound floor and balanced the output so I could remove the decoupling capacitor. Has a much warmer sound than the 97/99/704 or other bit-stream DAC players. Still use it in the bedroom.


How many TDA1541s are in there in the CDV-488? Do you know if it is in none oversampling mode?
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 25 Sep 2016, 02:07 
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A single two channel 1541 and yes there is oversampling
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2016, 22:36 
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Can one maybe update a players chips to a higher end one?
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 02:14 
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vash32 wrote:
Can one maybe update a players chips to a higher end one?


You can add an audiophile grade digital aes or att output like Theta, Runco, EAD, Faroudja and MSB did (or just buy one of these). Then use an outboard DAC. It's much simpler than designing a complete DAC section. Outboard DACs from early 00s sell for $200-300 (original msrp over $3000 on these) just because they can't accept 192khz and dsd streams of today. Theta DSPro basic III has excellent PCM1702 DACs for example.
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 23:38 
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vash32 wrote:
Can one maybe update a players chips to a higher end one?


Need the correct supporting chips to go with it and the pinout is usually different. As said above just get a better quality external DAC and run the digital output to it.
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 00:57 
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Just got a CDV487, according to the back panel it's got the same TDA1541A-S1 DAC as the 488.
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 12 Dec 2017, 01:03 
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Updated the list. Thanks
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 26 Apr 2018, 15:18 
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=> Updated the list in the first post with info from this thread: best laserdisc players for analog audio?

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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 30 Apr 2018, 04:41 
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admin wrote:
=> Updated the list in the first post with info from this thread: best laserdisc players for analog audio?


+ revisited all the available scanned Service Manuals to find the DAC circuitry and extract the IC chip references.

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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 03 May 2018, 11:09 
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It's actually quite fun to get into the history of DACs over the years.

They started with the need to output analog audio when the world transitioned to CD carrying digital signal.
That was quite new and Philips/SONY had to come up with chips that would do the job from day 1.

I didn't fully realized that somewhere inside my first CD player, there was something turning 0's and 1's into sound.

I must have been 12yo give or take, it was a SABA Continental Edison (originally USA then French from 1971 to 2006 then Chinese then French again since 2011) tuner/tape/CD/Equalizer/Amp combo and I heard that a distant cousin whom I gave it to (some ~25 years ago) was still using it daily to play CDs. Still working!

Same goes for PC soundboards, amps, digital players with analog outputs or headphone plugs, etc.

There are quite a few websites to browse on DAC history and, since LaserDisc pre-dates the CD DACs and went along with them for ~20 years, we have quite a diversity of chipsets used in LD Players over the years. Sadly, if you want to know which one was used on your specific model, you'll have to get your hands on a Service Manual or open the beast to check the chipsets visually...


At that time you were stuck with whatever chip was soldered inside your device.
Then some high-end companies offered outboards to choose your DAC.
Then we moved to digital transport and normalization of standards (toslink, bitstream, HDMI, USB).
Now it's common place to use an external DAC, or leverage a better one while using older equipment.

My LD Player Digital Audio, AC3 and DTS are now all sent to the OPPO's DAC inside their BD/UBD players, taking advantage of the latest 8-channel 32-bit SABRE ESS9038PRO at 140dB dynamic range (DNR) and -122dB Total Harmonic Distorsion plus Noise (THD+N). These specs would have been science-fiction back when digital audio was added to LaserDiscs but we can still enjoy them today with better-than-ever sound!

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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 03 May 2018, 16:46 
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These are from my memory, I might be a off a little bit but this is how it started (give or take). Sony and Philips developed Compact Disc (CD) and Pulse Code Modulation(PCM). Philips developed the hardware which is a 15bit R2R type DAC chip. Sony came up with the 16 bit PCM sampling. The first CD players had to be modified to down sample the data to 15 bits in order for the Philips DACs to be compatible.

The second generation Philips DACs came out soon after and were true 16 bits. In this second generation, TDA1543s came out and still considered one of the best DAC chips ever designed. These chips are true 16 bit and 44.1 Khz. The S/N ratio isn’t great compared to todays standards but you can stack multiple of these in parallel to significantly improve S/N and dynamic ratio. There are current designs which incorporates 10 to 20 of these DAC chips in parallel. Every time you double the amount of DAC chips in parallel, the S/N improves 3db. So typical 4 or 8 per channel is typical for a 6 to 9db improvement on the S/N ratio. Needless to say, these chips are extremely rare and expensive nowadays since they haven’t been produced for decades. That’s why those exotic DACs cost thousands of dollars.

Later in the game, Burr Brown (now TI) came up with their multi-bit DAC chips. PCM63 was the very first great one. It is a 16 bit chip and some found it the most musical chip every made. PCM 1702 later replaced PCM63. It is based on the PCM63 design but now has 20bits. (HLD-X9/X0) uses these chips one per channel). Again, stacking these chips in parallel yields the best results. PCM1704 further improved with 24 bits. Good Dacs usually have at least 8 in total. Acccuphase DAC which cost $20,000 has 16 of them and perhaps the DAC ever design for CD playback.

Early 2000s, chip manufacturers abandoned multi-bit DACs and make only single bit DACs with extreme upsampling. Currently, there is no multi-bit DACs in production. The last one was PCM1704 from 10 years ago. Current ones employs something called Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) and a filter at the end to create a sine wave with a single bit. The sampling rates are generally in megahertz. The ESS chip admin mentioned here is a single bit chip with some insane oversampling. The 32 bit they talk about is theoretical here. It is by no means a multi-bit DAC but its performance is equivalent of a 32bit chip. All incoming signals are converted to 1 bit PWM, which Sony calls it DSD, then runs through a filter to create sine waves. This way the DAC chip does not need ton of resistors to create a R2R multi-bit ladder network and the cost is way down. The quality heavily depend on the software algorithms used and the filters used at the end. ESS DAC chip uses 8 single bit DACs in parallel (in one chip) to further increase the S/N ratio.

To summarize it all:

To have really high S/N ratio, multiple multi-bit DACs need to be stacked in parallel. Multi-bit DACs like PCM1704 costed something like $40 per chip back in the day (way more in the used market now). These chips are single task only, they need other chips to compliment them such as i2s receiver, up/over sampler and digital filter chips. They output current and need analog circuitry at the end to convert to voltage output. McIntosh MDA1000 is a great example. It uses a custom fpga to upsample all incoming signals to 24bit 768 Khz, uses 8x PCM 1704 in parallel, an excellent current to voltage convertor and am analog smoothing filter. Probably the best DAC ever built along with the Accuphase DACs. These are extremely expensive electronics, just the parts alone are worth a thousand dollars. With the cosmetics, support, r&d and other costs included, these companies charged $8,000-$20, 000 for these DACs.

Now the ESS chip is around $35-60 and it does all that in one chip. Oppo uses two of these. One for the stereo output 2x4 DAC chip configuration and another chip in 8x1 DAC chip configuration for its 7.1 output.

I will write some more later but enough for now I think.
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 04 May 2018, 10:56 
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For Pioneer self-made DACs, this page has some info:

Quote:
Pioneer Pulseflow DACs were made by Nippon Precision Circuits.
PD2026A/B no Legato. Based on NPC SM58712 or 5872 delta sigma DACs
PD2028A without Legato, PD2028B with - based most likely on NPC5864. It is the best rebadged DAC from Pioneer.
PD2029 is the worst. With Legato.


And for a global list with comments (translated from... Russian?):

http://www.soundbsessive.com/information-about-dac-chips/

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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 04 May 2018, 17:06 
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From their respective service manuals :

* Pioneer LD-V4300D (AKA LV-4300D) uses Sanyo LC7883KM stereo DAC with built-in 8x interpolation digital filter and DWT1045 mechanism (with DWY1016 optical pick-up and linear motor)
* Pioneer CLD-2950 uses Pioneer PD2026B stereo DAC and VWT1116 optical pick-up
* Pioneer CLD-D925 uses Toshiba TC9004F delta-sigma stereo DAC with built-in 8x interpolation digital filter and VWT1131 mechanism (with VWT1110 optical pick-up)

Datasheet of the Sanyo LC7883KM DAC : https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/part ... KM-pdf.php
The theory of operation of the post-digital filter conversion process is related to the LC7881 chip from Sanyo : https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/part ... 81-pdf.php (see page 7 of the former PDF and pages 5 and 6 of the latter)

The theory of operation of the digital to analogue conversion process is rather unusual. First time I see something like that. It comprises three intertwined different conversion methods, one for each three different groups of bits out of the 16 bits of the audio signal. First, the 9 most significant bits (MSB) modulate a 9 bits voltage divider formed by 512 resistors, the reference voltage applied to said divider being itself level shifted by the 4 least significant bits (LSB). The resulting modulated voltage out of the divider is then again modulated by a pulse width modulator (PWM) triggered by the 3 remaining intermediate bits between the 4 LSB and the 9 MSB.

Very odd process indeed, but I can assure you that it perfectly works as the sound quality out of the LD-V4300D is actually good.
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 Post subject: Re: Master list for DAC chips used in LD players
PostPosted: 07 May 2018, 04:19 
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substance wrote:
Oppo uses two of these. One for the stereo output 2x4 DAC chip configuration and another chip in 8x1 DAC chip configuration for its 7.1 output.


OK, now I understand why using the OPPO's stereo output whenever listening to stereo sources is a better option.

I'm currently using the stereo outputs from the 7.1ch Ext of the OPPO.

Would you recommend?

  • OPPO Stereo dedicated outputs => Receiver Stereo L/R in
  • OPPO 5.1 dedicated outputs => Receiver 5.1ch Ext in

Additional bonus: Slides on the ADC and DAC process from UCSD.

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