It is currently 17 Jul 2019, 21:21




 Page 1 of 1 [ 20 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 17 May 2019, 18:34 
Shows curiousity
Shows curiousity
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 10:29
Posts: 17
Location: Japan
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times
So, I’ve been using a Sony BDZ-T55 Blu-ray recorder from Japan to back up LDs here and there for more than 10 years now. This thing is a Made in Japan tank that weighs more than 5kg, It has 2 video/S-video inputs and can record up to 15 MB/s AVC (I believe only Sony recorders do this, as other brands only record external inputs in MPEG-2 last I checked), which has no compression artifacts that I can detect. It won’t record audio input at anything other than 256KB/s Dolby Digital 2.0, but I can always capture the PCM using my computer, then mux it in with the video easily enough since it isn’t copy protected once burned to BDR. The backups are in 480i AVC and seem to be fully Blu-ray compliant, can only fit about 3 hours or so on a BD25 at the maximum bitrate, though.

I’ve been pretty satisfied with the S-Video output of the HLD-X9, but I wish I’d tried using the composite output into the BD recorder sooner! Didn’t think its comb filter would fare better than the internal one in the X9, but looks like it does a really good job. It’s already more than 10 years old, hope it lasts a long while still. I briefly considered getting a Domesday setup, but I don’t think I have the time or patience for decoding the capture and then re-encoding it to AVC or whatever. Maybe some years down the road for some of my LDs that never got a remastered DVD or BD release.

Attached is a capture of the Snell & Wilcox pattern on the Video Essentials LD. Only some rainbows in the 4 corners of the circle in the middle when it's moving, and some weird color artifacts in the top right box, but everything else looks perfect. No other rainbows or dot crawl. The picture is a bit brighter than it would be with a Japanese LD since the BD recorder expects the 0 IRE of NTSC-J, so a JP recorder might not be ideal for backing up US LDs, but in my case I mostly have JP LDs anyway.
Attachment:
BDZ-T55[01].jpg
BDZ-T55[01].jpg [ 143.05 KiB | Viewed 486 times ]


I may have recommended Sony BD recorders for backups before, and these older models are really cheap on Yahoo Japan (less than 1/10th their original price), but unfortunately their menus are in Japanese (maybe some newer ones can be set to English, but I dunno how their comb filters are, and they stopped including S-video inputs a while ago), and shipping from Japan would probably cost a good bit, especially for the older 5kg+ models.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 17 May 2019, 18:39 
Shows curiousity
Shows curiousity
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 10:29
Posts: 17
Location: Japan
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times
I also got another Sony BD recorder a few years later, the BDZ-AT750W (from 2012 I believe). This one has a larger HDD and doesn’t weigh as much (it's also made in China, natch), but it only has one video/S-video input. No big deal, but when I tested out its comb filter, it performed much worse than the BDZ-T55. Attached is a capture. Rainbows and dot crawl galore!

It does have a “VHS dubbing” (“dubbing” is the English loan word used in Japanese to refer to copying a video) feature, which I assume means it has a TBC, but I’ve never used it since I have a Panasonic SVHS deck with an internal TBC. Looking around on the Kakaku.com forums though, someone said that all BD recorders have a TBC since it’s assumed that VHS will be used the most on analog inputs, so I dunno what’s different about this model’s “VHS dubbing” thing. Ah well.

I also have a Panasonic recorder from 2011, and its comb filter doesn’t fare any better than the newer Sony. I mainly got it for its “Anime Mode” that works well with deinterlacing certain Blu-rays mastered in so-called “720i” that came out 10 or so years ago like Spice and Wolf season 1, but thankfully no more anime like that has come out since then, AFAIK.


Attachments:
BDZ-AT750W[1].jpg
BDZ-AT750W[1].jpg [ 145.04 KiB | Viewed 483 times ]
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 17 May 2019, 19:16 
Honest fan
Honest fan
User avatar

Joined: 26 May 2014, 19:25
Posts: 81
Location: United States
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 2 times
First it was DVD recorders and now Blu-Ray recorders. I see you're using a Sony...

I think for now I'm not going to worry too much about external comb filters since my 2015 Sony XBR-55X810c has this kind of performance via the composite in from my DVL-V888 composite out.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hibcyaw668rw2vh/Sony%20XBR55X810c%20DVLV888%20Composite%20Input.MOV?dl=0



If I have the choice between a $3-4k Lumagen or a $1k 4K TV I think I'd choose the TV. That way I can afford lunch and maybe a coffee :)

Once day in the future the TV will die and I'll be in need of something else because the 100" 8K displays will NOT have a composite input....For that day I have a Faroudja DVP-1010 with DVI out that is very decent.

Test signals are one thing and actual movies another. Movies vary SO much in quality while the test patterns will always be perfect (as can be).

At the end of the day just have fun, spin some movies and smile :)


Attachments:
Sony XBR55X810c Composite Input.jpg
Sony XBR55X810c Composite Input.jpg [ 116.52 KiB | Viewed 476 times ]
_________________
Kevin
CLD-D704|CLD-D406|DVL-V888|LX-900U|Faroudja DVP-1010|Yamaha APD-1|Sony XBR55X810C
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 17 May 2019, 19:56 
Young Padawan
Young Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3506
Location: United States
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 134 times
There is a really cool video on YT somewhere, Japanese, where someone runs an LD-1000 through a DVD recorder and then runs that through a Blu-ray recorder and the results were very very good. I can’t find it anymore though...
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 17 May 2019, 23:37 
Advanced fan
Advanced fan
User avatar

Joined: 23 Jun 2017, 01:55
Posts: 636
Location: United States
Has thanked: 91 times
Been thanked: 28 times
I'm surprised BD recorders actually exist.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 18 May 2019, 01:02 
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05
Posts: 5614
Location: United States
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 95 times
I'm surprised that there would be much advantage of copying an LD to Bluray.
Possibly if you were to do a 3 sided film it may be better?
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 18 May 2019, 01:23 
Young Padawan
Young Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3506
Location: United States
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 134 times
It’s not for making discs, but to do the upconverting.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 18 May 2019, 01:34 
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05
Posts: 5614
Location: United States
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 95 times
Oh OK that and I guess its more for the RCA to HDMI connectors.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 18 May 2019, 05:04 
Shows curiousity
Shows curiousity
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 10:29
Posts: 17
Location: Japan
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times
signofzeta wrote:
It’s not for making discs, but to do the upconverting.


For me personally it's about having a higher bitrate than DVD MPEG-2 from a DVD recorder, those always seemed to give me compression artifacts. Haven't used one in a long time though.

My BD recorders don't actually upscale anything before burning to disc, the newer one will upscale to 1080p (the older one only goes up to 1080i) when playing but I usually leave it at 480p and let my 4K monitor do the upscaling anyway.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 24 May 2019, 01:14 
Genuinely interested
Genuinely interested
User avatar

Joined: 24 Mar 2019, 06:31
Posts: 53
Location: United States
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
jd213 wrote:
signofzeta wrote:
It’s not for making discs, but to do the upconverting.


For me personally it's about having a higher bitrate than DVD MPEG-2 from a DVD recorder, those always seemed to give me compression artifacts. Haven't used one in a long time though.

My BD recorders don't actually upscale anything before burning to disc, the newer one will upscale to 1080p (the older one only goes up to 1080i) when playing but I usually leave it at 480p and let my 4K monitor do the upscaling anyway.


This guy gets it :) You're not wrong nor alone in thinking that DVD MPEG-2 is limited. This is especially true for DVD recorders, since realtime hardware encoding is always inferior to software encoding. For things sourced from a purely digital master, it's mostly fine. But when you have an analog source with inherent noise, DVD is not going to cut it. It's not a reference quality format by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't use a standalone BD recorder but I archive all my H.264 direct captures to Blu-ray (in 480i) because you're just going to lose quality doing anything else. The free program TSMuxeR is a very handy tool to have around in this case, as it will generate a BD ISO from almost any reasonably compliant stream. Adobe Encore, on the other hand, will require re-encoding if anything is not within their hidden set of guidelines. I think they just don't like most H.264 encoders' use of MBAFF for interlaced content.

Anyway, I think Blu-ray as a consumer archival format is a hugely underrated and underutilized technology. Discs are way more durable, burners and discs are cheap, bitrate ceiling is very generous, video length is generous even at high bitrates.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 24 May 2019, 01:37 
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05
Posts: 5614
Location: United States
Has thanked: 67 times
Been thanked: 95 times
alexpigment wrote:

Anyway, I think Blu-ray as a consumer archival format is a hugely underrated and underutilized technology. Discs are way more durable


Yeah, I'll believe that when I see a 40+ year old BD disc playing without issues like my 1977/78 Discovision and other older discs do now.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 24 May 2019, 04:32 
Genuinely interested
Genuinely interested
User avatar

Joined: 24 Mar 2019, 06:31
Posts: 53
Location: United States
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
rein-o wrote:
alexpigment wrote:

Anyway, I think Blu-ray as a consumer archival format is a hugely underrated and underutilized technology. Discs are way more durable


Yeah, I'll believe that when I see a 40+ year old BD disc playing without issues like my 1977/78 Discovision and other older discs do now.


On a basic level, I understand that they haven't been around long enough to really know for sure, but BD-R (at least the non-LTH versions) don't use organic dyes like DVD-Rs do. They also are coated in a thick layer of plastic that has a unique scratch resistant property. Lastly, if you are really concerned about their longevity and don't mind spending a little bit more, M-Discs are available, and that's effectively like etching the content into the layer. Personally, I think the Verbatim BD-Rs will last a hell of a lot longer than any CD-Rs and DVD-Rs will.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 24 May 2019, 06:50 
Shows curiousity
Shows curiousity
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 10:29
Posts: 17
Location: Japan
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times
I'm not too worried about any of my discs (I figure if a LD hasn't rotted by now it should be fine), and all my Taiyo-Yuden CD-Rs/DVD-Rs/BD-Rs still play fine unless they got really scratched in the case of the CD-Rs, some of which are 20 years old now...

LD players, on the other hand...
I guess you'll be OK if you have enough backup players and parts to last the rest of your life...
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 06:06 
True fan
True fan
User avatar

Joined: 27 Jun 2014, 07:12
Posts: 454
Location: France
Has thanked: 86 times
Been thanked: 5 times
With a Bluray recorder can you choose between recording on mpeg-2 or mpeg-4 or whatever?

Another question; there is a BD release of Tomb raider 2001 encoded in mpeg-2, have you seen any DVD release encoded in mpeg-1 ?
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 18:43 
Honest fan
Honest fan
User avatar

Joined: 26 May 2014, 19:25
Posts: 81
Location: United States
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 2 times
alexpigment wrote:

This guy gets it :) You're not wrong nor alone in thinking that DVD MPEG-2 is limited.

Anyway, I think Blu-ray as a consumer archival format is a hugely underrated and underutilized technology. Discs are way more durable, burners and discs are cheap, bitrate ceiling is very generous, video length is generous even at high bitrates.


Forgive me for being obtuse, but why even make a disc at all these days? Almost any modern display or AVR has either network or USB connectivity for playing files directly.

If you're "archiving" then why use a lossy codec at all? Capture as uncompressed or at least ProRes or DNxHD? Convert to any flavor necessary from there. MPEG-2 is not ideal but neither is H.264...depending on the person either could be considered "good enough" for them.

Convenience, in the way of file storage space, and universality of a BD is probably the answer I'm assuming.

I'm currently digitizing some LDs that a friend gave me. They belonged to his uncle who would like copies he can watch (LD player is dead). I'm capturing ProRess 422 and delivering files on a hard drive to my buddy. He can do whatever he wants from there including make VCD, DVD, BD, etc

LDs from the 1970s may continue to still playable, however the mechanisms for doing so are becoming harder to obtain as will BD players in the (not too distant) future. Hell, newer TVs don't even have dedicated composite (let alone S-Video) inputs and if they do they may be on a breakout cable at best.
_________________
Kevin
CLD-D704|CLD-D406|DVL-V888|LX-900U|Faroudja DVP-1010|Yamaha APD-1|Sony XBR55X810C
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2019, 22:24 
Jedi Initiate
Jedi Initiate
User avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2005, 15:38
Posts: 3069
Location: Pennsylvania
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 31 times
ertoili wrote:
With a Bluray recorder can you choose between recording on mpeg-2 or mpeg-4 or whatever?

Another question; there is a BD release of Tomb raider 2001 encoded in mpeg-2, have you seen any DVD release encoded in mpeg-1 ?

As far as I know, some early European DVDs used MPEG-1 for the audio compression rather than Dolby Digital.

Never heard of a DVD using MPEG-1 for video though.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 02:11 
Shows curiousity
Shows curiousity
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 10:29
Posts: 17
Location: Japan
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times
ertoili wrote:
With a Bluray recorder can you choose between recording on mpeg-2 or mpeg-4 or whatever?


You can set the bitrate (using nebulous terms such as SR and XR) , but I don't think any recorders will let you choose the compression format, and Sony ones are the only ones that record external analog signals in AVC, all other companies use MPEG2, AFAIK.

Toshiba ones will at least record the audio in PCM, but there's no digital audio input, so the LD PCM has to go through a conversion from digital to analog and back to digital again, so directly capturing the PCM with a PC sound card would be better anyway.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 02:21 
Shows curiousity
Shows curiousity
User avatar

Joined: 13 Jul 2012, 10:29
Posts: 17
Location: Japan
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 11 times
sonicboom wrote:
Forgive me for being obtuse, but why even make a disc at all these days? Almost any modern display or AVR has either network or USB connectivity for playing files directly.

If you're "archiving" then why use a lossy codec at all? Capture as uncompressed or at least ProRes or DNxHD? Convert to any flavor necessary from there. MPEG-2 is not ideal but neither is H.264...depending on the person either could be considered "good enough" for them.

Convenience, in the way of file storage space, and universality of a BD is probably the answer I'm assuming.

I'm currently digitizing some LDs that a friend gave me. They belonged to his uncle who would like copies he can watch (LD player is dead). I'm capturing ProRess 422 and delivering files on a hard drive to my buddy. He can do whatever he wants from there including make VCD, DVD, BD, etc


Convenience and time are definitely major factors for me. AVC from Sony BD recorders might not be perfect lossless copies of the analog video, but there's no noticeable compression artifacts, so it's much better than MPEG2 in that regard.

You should probably look into getting a Domesday86 setup if you want perfect LD backups, BTW. The decoding software is still being worked on but you can still make full images as backups now, and then decode them later when the software is more mature.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2019, 02:45 
Young Padawan
Young Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3506
Location: United States
Has thanked: 55 times
Been thanked: 134 times
If I send someone something on a BD they may watch it. If I send it on thumb stick and tell them they better clear 70 GB per hour off their drive to watch it, requires some player nobody’s ever heard of, etc they won’t watch it.

Some people like to archive. Some people like to make copies for other people. They sound the same but one is more heavy on the people.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: using Blu-ray recorders from Japan for LDs
PostPosted: 20 Jun 2019, 19:03 
Honest fan
Honest fan
User avatar

Joined: 26 May 2014, 19:25
Posts: 81
Location: United States
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 2 times
jd213 wrote:
Convenience and time are definitely major factors for me.

Convenience is king second only to price point or vice versa I guess. For quick one off recordings I'm happy with the Panasonic DMR-ES10 I have. For $15 at the thrift shop it is just fine. I just wish the audio was PCM and it had a SPDIF input.

jd213 wrote:
You should probably look into getting a Domesday86 setup if you want perfect LD backups

Yeah, the DDD project is very very intriguing and I'm just waiting for both the software to be fully fleshed out and to obtain the hardware. Not that I have anything really special to archive (I'm not a collectard) but I'm just really curious to see how good the decodes can be.

signofzeta wrote:
If I send someone something on a BD they may watch it.

Also, to Zeta's point most TVs, DVD/BD players and AVRs in the last 5-19 years do include USB playback and will allow at least MPEG-2 or H.246 support so sharing with friends is pretty easy these days. Less time/energy and plastic/dye consumed opposed to making a disc. In fact, fewer and fewer people even have a 12cm disc player in their home! I have a SSD in a USB3 case full of DVD rips (MPEG-2 with AC3/DTS/PCM) that play great on the Sony TV through the USB3 port. I can take that to any home and likely playback with no issues.
_________________
Kevin
CLD-D704|CLD-D406|DVL-V888|LX-900U|Faroudja DVP-1010|Yamaha APD-1|Sony XBR55X810C
Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 1 [ 20 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: