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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 20:53 
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xtempo wrote:
Was it mainly the small LD singles or the regular size ones you are playing?

All LD normal size "large". The singles have not yet.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 21:44 
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forper wrote:
timax wrote:
The quality of music playback is sometimes higher than on the LP. A normal CD is not even considered, because it is a different League.


Are you listening to the digital tracks on your LDs or analogue?

You realise CDs contain PCM audio, the same as LD (and DVD for that matter) digital 2ch sound right?

Listened to on ways. It's not that simple, forper. I compared the sound of CD and LD in digital and analog. When comparing in digital, both of the player connected to the DAC Cyrus Dacmaster. Cyrus Discmaster vs Pioneer -959. Same entries: "The Wall" Pink Floyd, "Unplugged" E. Clapton, Sade and more. All my CD editions are of high quality. When switching inputs to DAC, the difference was noticeable. Perhaps with simpler devices, this would not have happened. Only very high quality audiophile CD (MFSL, Audio Fidelity) can compete with LD. But look at the price of these CDS. All other "normal" CD are inferior in sound quality. It does not matter how AAD/ADD or DDD was recorded. Given the current cost of music LD (on average 10-15 dollars with delivery) competitors in this price range, they do not have.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 21:49 
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So you're just saying your LD player is just a higher quality transport than your CD player?
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 25 Jun 2019, 22:48 
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forper wrote:
So you're just saying your LD player is just a higher quality transport than your CD player?

I have all devices class Hi-End . CD player is equipped with the best possible mechanism of the existing Philips CDM-9pro. I'm not saying Pioneer is better made, I'm saying LD as a music format is more interesting than CD.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 00:34 
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If you are using the digital outs on the player and your own DAC for conversion and you like the LD version of something more than the CD version then you are either 1) hearing a different master that you prefer or 2) imagining it.

If one takes the same master and puts it bit for bit on both an LD and a CD the sound coming out of that player’s digital out is THE SAME. It’s bit for f-ing bit IDENTICAL and NOBODY can hear the difference. It’s 16-bit 44.1khz and that’s final.

Chances are the LD version is compressed and boosted so that it sounds better on crappy TVs and this in turn causes it to drive your amp more and that’s probably what sounds so much cooler than the CD. That’s just my theory though. I’ve never been to your listening room, obviously.

I advise: record the LD digitally and then burn it on a CD. If that doesn’t tingle your spine the same way then you’re imaging the whole thing.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 08:16 
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I remember back in the days when LD players were still being tested in Hi-Fi Magazines, the CD playback was usually rated as mediocre.
Note that I am talking about the european market and european issued players.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 08:21 
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signofzeta wrote:
If you are using the digital outs on the player and your own DAC for conversion and you like the LD version of something more than the CD version then you are either 1) hearing a different master that you prefer or 2) imagining it.

If one takes the same master and puts it bit for bit on both an LD and a CD the sound coming out of that player’s digital out is THE SAME. It’s bit for f-ing bit IDENTICAL and NOBODY can hear the difference. It’s 16-bit 44.1khz and that’s final.

Chances are the LD version is compressed and boosted so that it sounds better on crappy TVs and this in turn causes it to drive your amp more and that’s probably what sounds so much cooler than the CD. That’s just my theory though. I’ve never been to your listening room, obviously.

I advise: record the LD digitally and then burn it on a CD. If that doesn’t tingle your spine the same way then you’re imaging the whole thing.


In theory , Yes. In practice - no))

I am the owner of a small shop selling vintage electronics and had the opportunity to compare different device. When me start to show charts, signal diagrams, I always smile. I have ears and can listen. All playback devices (in this case CDP and LDP) having the same record, play it differently. Of course, these differences are minimal and often not audible to the unprepared listener. I will say more, do not have any difference for him. But I now sell almost the entire collection (more than 1000 CDs), except for rarities. I like more to listen to analog recordings and LD give such an opportunity.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 08:23 
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People, back to ANALOG! ))))
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2019, 08:36 
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By the way, I didn't say anything about the video. After purchasing a LD player, I bought an old (but barely used) CRT TV Loewe Articos, and later a Pioneer 506 plasma. Now I'm not a big fan of watching movies, but in the past I watched a lot. Therefore, slowly collecting masterpieces of world cinema.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 01:33 
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In the audiophile world weight is added to the motors to spin the CD as they help stabilize the rotational speed of the stepper motors. Many preferred LD players and use the digital output to their own D/A’s as the motor has more mass and stabilizes the speed better with means less jitter error. The external D/A’s or modified players like the Theta’s provided a superior sound verses the internal D/A circuits which were commonly mediocre. As Tamar states you need to be a critical listening audiophile with a proper sound system and audiophiles claim their is a difference. Many audiophile CD players had weighted top clamps to help stabilize the rotational speed using the smaller motors.

With this said I doubt you’ll ever hear the difference in a movie sound track so unless you are an audiophile then this does not matter.

But for me a multi-bit D/A has a warmer sound and a more pleasant experience in long listening verses a single-bit D/A even in movies, but I care about this.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 11:05 
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For reference, the (known) DAC list of LD Players:

Master list for DAC chips used in LD players

Julien
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 11:17 
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krbahr wrote:
In the audiophile world weight is added to the motors to spin the CD as they help stabilize the rotational speed of the stepper motors. Many preferred LD players and use the digital output to their own D/A’s as the motor has more mass and stabilizes the speed better with means less jitter error. The external D/A’s or modified players like the Theta’s provided a superior sound verses the internal D/A circuits which were commonly mediocre. As Tamar states you need to be a critical listening audiophile with a proper sound system and audiophiles claim their is a difference. Many audiophile CD players had weighted top clamps to help stabilize the rotational speed using the smaller motors.

With this said I doubt you’ll ever hear the difference in a movie sound track so unless you are an audiophile then this does not matter.

But for me a multi-bit D/A has a warmer sound and a more pleasant experience in long listening verses a single-bit D/A even in movies, but I care about this.


Fully agree with this.

I have just such a CD. CD transport has loading the disk on top, weight puk and the external multi-bit D/A with chips AD1862. Each device has a remote power supply. Total player consists of 4 devices & special rack.

As for the audio tracks of the films, I can't say anything, because the sound quality in them does not interest me. The top 5+1 Bose system still not connected, though bought it 18 years ago, all movies are watching on stereo and don't care about it.)))
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 27 Jun 2019, 11:46 
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admin wrote:
For reference, the (known) DAC list of LD Players:

Master list for DAC chips used in LD players

Julien


Based on this list I would choose:
CLD-95, LD-X1 (S-2) or CLD-919...

Next is monsters HLD-X9 or HLD-X0, but I'm not sure they have the advantage for audio quality.
And considering their cost and complexity in repair, I would buy for myself only at the equal price with the first three.

For viewing of concerts and clips are also enough players on PCM-56 & AD-1860.
All other chips significantly lose as music playback. But I do not know how things are with the playback of audio tracks for the film.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 07:04 
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Nobody has magic ears. Redbook standard includes error correction bits so as long as nothing horrible is going wrong, no real improvements in getting the correct 0's & 1's off the medium has occurred since the beginning. "Hearing" any changes at that point would be like claiming a person who is handed a sheet of paper with very good handwriting on it will sound even better when reading the same story with perfect handwriting on it. I've seen some recent disc technology claims that because the pits are more squared off rather than the older U shaped ones it's going to sound better. (Anybody remember the green felt tip pens they sold to run around the edges of your CDs so the laser light wouldn't escape?)

I think this is a great side journey to this thread... Very recent & some great comments too:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru ... time.7279/
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 08:03 
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timax wrote:
admin wrote:
For reference, the (known) DAC list of LD Players:

Master list for DAC chips used in LD players

Julien


Based on this list I would choose:
CLD-95, LD-X1 (S-2) or CLD-919...

Next is monsters HLD-X9 or HLD-X0, but I'm not sure they have the advantage for audio quality.
And considering their cost and complexity in repair, I would buy for myself only at the equal price with the first three.

For viewing of concerts and clips are also enough players on PCM-56 & AD-1860.
All other chips significantly lose as music playback. But I do not know how things are with the playback of audio tracks for the film.


Or basically any LD player with optical out to a decent off-board DAC.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 18:00 
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I think some confusion is happening here...

The audio quality of players’ analog outs varies hugely. A CLD-D604 and a CLD-99 are worlds apart. Nobody is saying otherwise.

The quality of their digital outs does not change though. If you are using some other DAC then on the player side you can only hear the difference between something that works and something that is defective. You can pour a new concrete foundation and bolt the player directly to it, buy $10,000 power cables, have a priest bless it, get the green pen, all that, it won’t sound any different because it isn’t producing sound, it’s producing computer code and unlike actual audio computer code is totally knowable and quantifiable and not any more mysterious than the guy that made it.

As long as the bit is flipped, it’s flipped. It can’t be more flipped. If jitter is bad enough to make it flip out of phase then that’s logged as an error and the DAC corrects for it. There are methods of analyzing a bit stream for errors, usually you can do this with digital audio recorders. If you aren’t getting errors then that’s it. You have the signal. You can play it in a LD-S1 or burn it onto a CD and play it on PlayStation and it will sound the same.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 30 Aug 2019, 22:55 
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I believe I stated earlier in this thread and if not I have in other threads that the reason audiophiles preferred LD players is the motors are larger and heavier which results in a more controlled rotation speed which results in less jitter in the data stream provided with the digital outputs. Jitter is also why audiophile equipment re-clock data to remove jitter.

Now if you want to use a LD players analog outputs from the internal D/A’s the multi-bit D/A’s will provide a warmer more pleasing sound.
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 31 Aug 2019, 00:51 
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Well (re)stated krbahr
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 06 Aug 2020, 17:18 
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signofzeta wrote:
I think some confusion is happening here...

The audio quality of players’ analog outs varies hugely. A CLD-D604 and a CLD-99 are worlds apart. Nobody is saying otherwise.

The quality of their digital outs does not change though. If you are using some other DAC then on the player side you can only hear the difference between something that works and something that is defective. You can pour a new concrete foundation and bolt the player directly to it, buy $10,000 power cables, have a priest bless it, get the green pen, all that, it won’t sound any different because it isn’t producing sound, it’s producing computer code and unlike actual audio computer code is totally knowable and quantifiable and not any more mysterious than the guy that made it.

As long as the bit is flipped, it’s flipped. It can’t be more flipped. If jitter is bad enough to make it flip out of phase then that’s logged as an error and the DAC corrects for it. There are methods of analyzing a bit stream for errors, usually you can do this with digital audio recorders. If you aren’t getting errors then that’s it. You have the signal. You can play it in a LD-S1 or burn it onto a CD and play it on PlayStation and it will sound the same.

I can tell you that not all optical or coaxial outputs are alike. This didn't happen on an LD player, but a CD changer that I once had. I bought an affordable 5 disc changer specifically to help make recording Minidisc mixes simpler (just program all the tracks you want off of the 5 CDs and hit play on the player and record on the MD recorder and walk away--the recorder will stop and restart between tracks.) I also believed that since it had an optical output, it didn't really matter how actually good the CD player was. I'm just pulling the bitstream off the CD directly so all the rest of the innards of the CD changer shouldn't have any bearing on that.

Well I was wrong.

I listened to the MD recording and there was this slight, but still audible tapping noise on all the tracks. At first I thought it was a bad MD blank (those are rare but do happen), so I tried again.

Same thing.

Tried recording from my LD player some of the same CDs through optical. They sounded perfect.

Definitely something amiss inside that changer. Possibly something wrong with the motor, but even so, it's odd that something like that would be carried through the optical output. Either way it did!

And as far as what Kurtis was mentioning with heavier machines and motors, that's definitely true.

That's why there are monster-sized, heavy, top of the top of the line audiophile CD players out there like those made by Wadia:

Image

Whether you'll need, care or even be able to tell the difference between the sound from that behemoth and that from your LD player or other CD player is a different story altogether

It's basically the same argument of getting a better, more expensive LD player. You can of course spend thousands of dollars for an HLD-X0 to get a better picture or thousands of dollars for a Wadia for better CD sound. Though your LDs and CDs may look or sound thousands of dollars better than what you already have after all that!
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 Post subject: Re: LD player for music.
PostPosted: 07 Aug 2020, 02:25 
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Your changer was a probably a POS. Almost all of them are. Many MD players count errors as they are recording. Did you do that? It would be interesting to see. I once wasted money on a very bad Sony Discman that would put random pauses in my discs...like 200ms or so. The thing just...sucked. It wasn’t a poor quality digital out, it was defective. Busted. A CD player made totally out of plastic can read CDs with zero errors in an hour. Adding weight to everything can’t improve sound via elimination of jitter unless you actually HAVE jitter in the design without it. And jitter, especially with more modern players, it’s nearly a myth. If it weren’t possible to totally dial these kinds of physical phenomena out of gear we never would have developed the 1/2oz $25 DVD burner that works perfectly. If mass mattered so much that little drive wouldn’t even be able to track. You have 16bits 44.1k times per second. If you...essentially mechanically oversample by bulking up the players physicality it won’t help if every bit is already aligned perfectly. If every bit is already in its correct place...you’re done. You can’t improve it. There’s nothing between the lines. Digital audio ISN’T AUDIO, it’s computer code that represents audio.

To reference current political events...the digital out gets a cognitive test. It’s either senile or it isn’t. Quality is irrelevant. You may as well be talking about the quality of the current $100 sitting in your checking account as opposed to the previous $100. The analog out however gets a full IQ test. :)

Make no mistake! I’m not here to pop anyone’s audiophile balloon. I absolutely believe in the infinitely inscrutable nature of audio. I could talk for days about it. However Redbook audio...it isn’t mysterious in the slightest. You can capture every single bit, open them in Wordpad, and see every one. You can zoom in on the wave in an editor to to point where you can see the aliasing. CD isn’t sound, it’s a man made container.

Meanwhile I’m pretty sure no direct drive phonograph ever made can maintain its speed as well as the worst CD player I’ve ever owned and to me that’s a more important area of focus. Add weight to your turntable, shelves, speaker stands, whatever.
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