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 Post subject: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013, 02:30 
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which laserdiscs have their original 70mm 6-track (baby boom, split or discrete) mixes preserved on ac-3 or dolby surround?

close encounters of the third kind seems to have it, so does top gun.
not sure about "dee-hard" (die hard)

feel free to confirm other titles, as long is it's in ENGLISH

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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013, 09:37 
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this one

Alien (1979) [8760-85]

I've got a 720p BD copy of this with the PCM 2.0 from the laserdisc audio (there is a second project underway to extract the 5.1 audio)
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 07 Jan 2013, 18:47 
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bigrob wrote:
this one

Alien (1979) [8760-85]

I've got a 720p BD copy of this with the PCM 2.0 from the laserdisc audio (there is a second project underway to extract the 5.1 audio)


I have a pending update on the AC-3 Alien LaserDisc. The 70mm print the sound was mastered from was a mix made for test screenings and doesn't contain all of the final score, sound FX, etc... Plus, Fox was in talks with MCA to license Sensurround, which MCA was, by that time, promoting as a competitor to Dolby Stereo - so the disc has an incredible LFE channel that isn't present on any other release - due to the 'timing' of the bass, and the time it would take to move from one side of the theater to the other and still shut off precisely on a scene cut, there are some odd moments, where the bass seems delayed or to hang over for too long, but these are attempts to compensate for the large theaters. The 70mm 6-track mag prints of the Sensurround mix were encoded with DBX Type II Noise Reduction, giving them a dynamic range, S/N ratio, frequency response and purity of sound that Dolby couldn't match until Spectral Recording NR was applied to 70mm in the mid-1980's. It's an amazing sounding mix and since I don't have a way to make a BD wih the AC-3 LaserDisc audio synced to it, but I do have a stand alone DTS Coherent Acoustics encoder that encodes at the 1.2mbps CD/LD rate, I plan to make DTS CD's that can be manually synced to any video format.

With all the versions of Alien's audio put on the BD's and DVD's, it's too bad the Sensurround test showing mix didn't get used. BTW, Fox finally went with Dolby because they had worked so well with them on Star Wars, came in at a lower licensing price and didn't require truly gigantic horn loaded bass bins to be installed in the front and backs of the theater and requiring the removal of seats. And many 70mm theaters were old and simply could not take the constant battering of the high energy infrasonic acoustic shock waves that Sensurround produced. So Fox went with the safer, and cheaper choice of Dolby Stereo for their final mix. But what a wonderful mistake that AC-3 release is! And infrasonic sound doesn't just generate the effect of movement, it creates an internal 'fear' response that really heightens the audience participation - that's why Sensurround was so popular and had so many installations.

An early mix for Alien 3 had some 70mm Dolby SR Mag test screenings done with infrasonic bass mixed in at high level and Intersonics Contrabass subs as well as old MCA Sensurround Model W horns installed for the screenings - the bass caused a few Fox execs to, um well - crap their pants and the mixers quickly dropped the plan and dialed back the infrasonic content of the mix. As a side not, Alien 3 has one of the best stereo to surround openings of any film on the fox logo. Warners original mono to stereo transformation mix during the opening credits of Superman is also fantastic - and you can only hear it properly on the original widescreen LaserDisc now. Evita tried something similar, but the surround mix was so bland and boring that, while the front channels and fidelity were great, especially in DTS on LD, as a surround mix, it sucks. It should have been much more 'quaddy', but for the most part sounds like 3-track stereo, like Titanics DTS CD soundtrack release.

Although not official Sensurround presentations, many 70mm theaters that had kept the Sensurround horns connected, showed Close Encounters in 70 with the baby booms being fed to the front and back Sensurround horns. CE in 70 has some very deep bass and reports from those who saw it in Sensurround equipped theaters were that it was as impressive as 'true' Sensurround and not even the digital formats and their LFE channel produced the same effect because the subs used in modern theaters simply cannot move the amount of air that the huge Sensurround horns did - Universal toyed briefly with some special horn loaded sub insttallations for Jurassic Park in DTS-6, but modern fire laws and such prevented the removing of seats to install 16 foot high subs in the front and back - plus, the isolation between screens isn't so hot, even in so-called THX theaters, so sound leakage would have been a problem. JP would have made a GREAT comeback film for a digital based version of Sensurround - early press releases from Universal mention Sensurround and that DTS can duplicate it in properly equipped theaters. Too bad none were. JP has some bass down below 20 Hz, which played at 120db, would have been incredible. I've heard an Intersonics Servo sub in a demo once and that was the only modern sub I've heard that came close to moving the amount of air that Sensurround sound - and that air movement effect was one of the things that made it so effective. That and the sensation that the solid ground below you was really moving. As I've said, those who never experienced it during the original showings have never heard bass like that and the effect it created. Even the recent Sensurround recreation showings of Earthquake and the other films are a far cry from the reality generated with the real system.

Does anyone on the forum own a D-Box Motion Control System, and if so, how is its effect? Was it worth the cost? I'm really intrigued by the D-Box system, especially since the movement effects are per-programmed and not just random based on the low frequency soundtrack like Butt-Kickers. Those I found irritating in demos. Like Magic Fingers for movies... And if I want Magic Fingers, I'll find and old motel or buy one of the original coin op systems on eBay.
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 01:07 
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Disclord your knowledge in this area is incredible and really appreciated. I hope your update / review of Alien 3 is forthcoming soon!

Don't want to push this thread off topic but would it be reasonable to include 70mm mixes that have appeared on newer formats that may or may not have appeared before, ie I read a post where you mentioned that The Towering Inferno blu ray is the first time the 70mm mix has been made available on disc?

You need to dip your toe in at the original trilogy forum. I think you'd find some of the threads in the Other Preservations sub forum of interest. It's there that the 70mm Alien ld mix was put together and there's some equally interesting DTS projects going on. Your name has already been mentioned... ;)
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 01:55 
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sweet.
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 02:34 
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tim_p wrote:
Disclord your knowledge in this area is incredible and really appreciated. I hope your update / review of Alien 3 is forthcoming soon!

Don't want to push this thread off topic but would it be reasonable to include 70mm mixes that have appeared on newer formats that may or may not have appeared before, ie I read a post where you mentioned that The Towering Inferno blu ray is the first time the 70mm mix has been made available on disc?

You need to dip your toe in at the original trilogy forum. I think you'd find some of the threads in the Other Preservations sub forum of interest. It's there that the 70mm Alien ld mix was put together and there's some equally interesting DTS projects going on. Your name has already been mentioned... ;)


My name has been mentioned for what? And what forum? is it on The LDDB?

I can't recall if I've added info on Alien 3. I think the LaserDisc pages, such as for the THX Towering Inferno, should state in the info that the 70mm mix is on the BD for the first time. It was prepared for AC-3 LaserDisc, but the disc was cancelled due to poor preorders. The DVD was done from the 4-track mag 'Scope prints. It's so cool hearing the 70mm mix on BD - and easy to derive the extra front channels, Left Center and Right Center, to recreate the 5-across-the-front 70mm presentation.

As far as I'm concerned, any info on 70mm transfers to other formats is fine here.
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 02:43 
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how about superman I-II-III, the first 6 star treks, the back to the futures, die hard, beauty and the beast. or this complete list of 70mm films
http://in70mm.com/library/process/dolby/index.htm

does the dts version of id4 have 70mm sound or close to it?
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 05:00 
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newtolaserelie wrote:
how about superman I-II-III, the first 6 star treks, the back to the futures, die hard, beauty and the beast. or this complete list of 70mm films
http://in70mm.com/library/process/dolby/index.htm

does the dts version of id4 have 70mm sound or close to it?

just buy them and enjoy the films, take a risk already, you did when you bought the player
now take a risk and buy some discs, don't expect to get them all for free from grashopper
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 05:11 
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 09:36 
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@disclord

many thanks for the informative info on the Alien 70m mix!

and i agree that you shoudl dip your toe over at originaltrilogy.com and speak to some of the guys there that are trying to preserve these incredible audio tracks
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 08 Jan 2013, 10:42 
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disclord wrote:
My name has been mentioned for what? And what forum? is it on The LDDB?

Not by me and it's only been complimentary :) , that for some of the projects your knowledge would be of great interest and value. It's a 'preservation' forum initially dedicated to Star Wars but has branched out to include other/more interesting(!) stuff. All legal.

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Preserving-DTS-LaserDisc-tracks-specifically-Jurassic-Park/topic/13541/

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/Dolby-Digital-41-Surround-Alien-Anthology/topic/13986/

http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic.cfm/DTS-soundtracks-on-laserdisc-and-not-on-DVD-or-BD/topic/15024/

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I do have a stand alone DTS Coherent Acoustics encoder that encodes at the 1.2mbps CD/LD rate, I plan to make DTS CD's that can be manually synced to any video format.
I like it.

Easy to derive the extra front channels from a 70mm mix - with something like DTS Neo:6 or are we talking cinema sound format processors only? And of course '5-across-the front' strongly implies (lol) that you need 5 speakers across the front - something that's not going to happen in my lounge unfortunately - 3 is pushing it. And I'm still undecided about a sub (ie I can probably swing it but I need most high quality bang for buck in as small a size as possible - mutually exclusive requirements I know).
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2013, 21:31 
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We've been trying to beef up the other preservations forum on OT.com for some time. The Alien mix was something special for sure. I've got the Superman LD on my wish list, as I enjoyed the DVD but felt the mix was lacking. As soon as I upgrade my PC with capture equipment I hope to capture original audio for the Bond films.

Nobody can really tell about 70mm audio for Die Hard, as there is no real reference. Since there are some mix differences and different placements on the LD PCM audio tracks it is thought that these are original 35mm Dolby Stereo.

The Definitive Collection and "Faces" reissue of Star Wars utilized the 70mm master audio for the first film, but added effects and made some slight changes. On OT.com, Hairy_hen painstakingly made a 70mm reconstruction using this track as a base, and has now made an updated version: http://originaltrilogy.com/forum/topic. ... 8/page/22/
There are other threads on the forum that list the known differences in audio for the 70mm version of ESB. As of yet, there is no known release of this track.

How do you guys feel about 70mm films that are ProLogic PCM on LD and lossy 5.1 on DVD or 5.1 on BD? For most it's actually the same mix, and mostly from my experience I prefer the LD version despite being matrixed instead of discrete.
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 14 Jan 2013, 01:58 
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I prefer the discrete BD mix because there's no surround leakage of music and such that isn't supposed to be in the surrounds. In a 70mm mix, the surrounds are silent until needed, which isn't the case with a 2 channel PCM Dolby Stereo mix down.
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 03 Feb 2013, 01:19 
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didn't know that, i thought they were at - 50db when not needed, then 0 db when needed.
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 11 Jun 2013, 23:37 
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What about Patton? Anyone know if the 5.1 mix on the THX laserdisc retains the directional dialogue? Got the remastered blu-ray coming but dialogue is locked to centre channel. Grrr. So I've bought Logan's Run for some (at least based on) Todd-AO directional goodness!
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2013, 01:17 
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tim_p wrote:
What about Patton? Anyone know if the 5.1 mix on the THX laserdisc retains the directional dialogue? Got the remastered blu-ray coming but dialogue is locked to centre channel. Grrr. So I've bought Logan's Run for some (at least based on) Todd-AO directional goodness!


The THX AC-3 LaserDisc of Patton has the full directional dialog mix - there was no remixing except for LC and RC since we don't have 5 speakers across the front. I'm totally bummed to hear they mono'ed the BD release. Why not make it black and white too? It's just as destructive. Just like Disney's destruction of the Fantasound on the BD of Fantasia. It's unlistenable.
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2013, 10:41 
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disclord wrote:
tim_p wrote:
What about Patton? Anyone know if the 5.1 mix on the THX laserdisc retains the directional dialogue? Got the remastered blu-ray coming but dialogue is locked to centre channel. Grrr. So I've bought Logan's Run for some (at least based on) Todd-AO directional goodness!


The THX AC-3 LaserDisc of Patton has the full directional dialog mix - there was no remixing except for LC and RC since we don't have 5 speakers across the front. I'm totally bummed to hear they mono'ed the BD release. Why not make it black and white too? It's just as destructive. Just like Disney's destruction of the Fantasound on the BD of Fantasia. It's unlistenable.


Thanks for the reply disclord. That's worth knowing - however I may have been a bit premature on my post. On further investigation it looks like the reviewer on AVS was wrong. Two other reviews I've subsequently read mention the dialogue "evenly spread across the front channels" and, even better, "a lot of accurately localized speech". So I think we're ok! And it's currently $9.99 on Amazon...
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 12 Jun 2013, 16:50 
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tim_p wrote:
disclord wrote:
tim_p wrote:
What about Patton? Anyone know if the 5.1 mix on the THX laserdisc retains the directional dialogue? Got the remastered blu-ray coming but dialogue is locked to centre channel. Grrr. So I've bought Logan's Run for some (at least based on) Todd-AO directional goodness!


The THX AC-3 LaserDisc of Patton has the full directional dialog mix - there was no remixing except for LC and RC since we don't have 5 speakers across the front. I'm totally bummed to hear they mono'ed the BD release. Why not make it black and white too? It's just as destructive. Just like Disney's destruction of the Fantasound on the BD of Fantasia. It's unlistenable.


Thanks for the reply disclord. That's worth knowing - however I may have been a bit premature on my post. On further investigation it looks like the reviewer on AVS was wrong. Two other reviews I've subsequently read mention the dialogue "evenly spread across the front channels" and, even better, "a lot of accurately localized speech". So I think we're ok! And it's currently $9.99 on Amazon...


Yay! That's great to know! Now I'll have to pick up the BD. I hate reviewers who don't know their sound or picture history - I recall reviews of The Sound Of Music that claimed the dialog was mastered wrong because it moved between the channels, not staying locked to the center like it 'should'! Or that there was no surround on a 4-track film when in fact MOST 4-track and 70mm films didn't have surrounds since that was considered an optional part of the theater install.
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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 12:57 
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I'm quite sure 2001 was a straight transfer from 6-track 70mm to AC3 5.1:

2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) [ML106348]
2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) [PILF-2510]

Searching got "70mm collection + AC3" in Japan gives:

http://www.lddb.com/search.php?adv_sear ... 32&sound=5

2001: A Space Odyssey (1968) (Uncut) [PILF-2510]
Doctor Zhivago: 30th Anniversary Edition (1965) [PILF-2226]
Patton (1970) [PILF-2506]

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 Post subject: Re: 70mm tracks on laserdisc
PostPosted: 14 Jun 2013, 22:17 
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Now two of these isn't 2001: A Dialogue Panning. :mrgreen:

Image

The later 2001 release DVD R2 that I bought in 2001 :thumbdown: no directional dialogue panning same as with bluray, Oh was this the format that brings cinema to the home? NOT! I don't care to play the bluary its a waste of HD projector lamp time and that is how I feel when I don't get 50% sound with a useless HD.

Glad I kept the MGM Laserdisc which is being played right now.

The out of print MGM region 1 DVD, is rare and contains the directional dialouge same as the Laserdisc and no doubt same pressing for the later Laserdisc in Dolby AC-3. like to own that pressing as well.

Image

Video fringing on Laserdisc pressing I have is a bit distracting but I won't trade this for bluray.

The framing is a bit wider on some portions over the R1 DVD. But don't forget the TV's slight over-scan. I'd have to run both on the video projector for a few minutes but not tonight.

Image

MGM DVD R1 less video fringing noise. Now is the later Dolby AC-3 Laserdisc pressing the same with less noise? Who here has both pressings on Laserdis?

Image

The Laserdisc as we know is bit brighter

Image

The R1 DVD is bit darker.

The Bevever has more captures.
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDReview/2001.htm

Not many Dolby AC-3 listings on ebay. Most are the same pressing I have and 25th one and some panned and scanned ones.
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