It is currently 07 Apr 2020, 08:02




 Page 2 of 2 [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 10:12 
Advanced fan
Advanced fan
User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 10:13
Posts: 817
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 6 times
laserbite34 wrote:
Cheers for showing how disgusting T2 really looks. Buy this again from dishonest James Cameron on bluray again...NEVER. :thumbdown: I'm done with buying T2 for the T2 Cash Milking Cow. :thumbdown:

I see that The Terminator is getting a 4K release on bluay :thumbdown: well they can cram that disc vertically where the sun doesn't shine. I might only buy it one more time on LD with the que mark dots and that is it!

I live in Austarila and own it already. It was released here and in Germany and the UK earlier. There is a slight teal shift, but it look absolutely stunning on my 55" display. No DNR or artificial sharpening, just plenty of detail, well defined colours and a nice layer of well preserved film grain. It was approved by Cameron himself and he says its the best The Terminator has ever looked. The only disappointing thing is that its missing the mono track.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 13 Feb 2013, 20:15 
Absolute fan
Absolute fan
User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 21:12
Posts: 1617
Location: Plattsburg, Missouri. USA
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 6 times
alien wrote:
disclord

I never saw T2 at the theater but I have seen it and have owned it multiple times on VHS, DVD and Blu-Ray, but by 5.1 channel CDS mix, do you mean to say that the first T2 from Artisan uses the sound effects heard in this orignal trailer for T2? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eajuMYNYtuY


The first T2 DVD of the theatrical cut from Artisan uses the same 5.1 channel mix that was prepared for the 70mm Kodak/ORC Cinema Digital Sound prints (the DVD of Dick Dracy uses the CDS 5.1 mix too). Although T2 was also release in 6-track mag 70mm, the CDS 5.1 mix was completely unlimited I'm dynamics and had deeper bass since 70mm mag can't go lower than about 30 Hz in the bass and can only have peaks about 16db or so above reference level. The CDS mix had peaks +20db above reference and bass to below 20 Hz. Because CDS was basically brand new, the CDS mix for T2 was prepared separately from the 70mm 6-track mag version to take advantage of the CDS system. (Dick Tracy, the very first CDS film, also had a seperate CDS mix done)

For the DVD, Artisan used the CDS 5.1 digital master, which had been archived on the S-VHS ADAT format. CDS was a lossless 44.1kHz sampling, 16-bit system that used a modified form of Delta Modulation to pack the audio into a total bitrate of just over 5mbp/s, and it stored on the film with absolutely no analog back up - In addition to no mag backup on 70mm, Kodak/ORC even eliminated the optical soundtrack on the 35mm version of CDS. Lack of audio backup (which the engineers designing the system fought Kodak and ORC over) meant that if the digital system failed - and due to CDS' high bitrate and packing densities, it did fail, often - the audience was greeted with dead silence. It also caused nightmares in shipping replacement reels since CDS reels couldn't be used at all if a non-CDS theater accidentally got one. The lack of analog backup and poor system reliability - plus Dolby's vapor ware announcement of SR-D a full 18 months before they had even started working on a digital sound film system, meant that sales of CDS systems were very poor - its high cost of over $20,000 per screen didn't help. And Steven Spielberg's public statements that he would never use the system caused heads to roll at the CDS company and the system was discontinued the next day - Spielberg had wanted to use CDS on his film Hook, so he had CDS encode several reels, which kept dropping out during the test screening - Spielberg walked out in the middle of the screening and said he'd never use the system (this happened several years before DTS was invented, so that had noting to do with it). Other studios and filmmakers who were planning on using CDS for their films suddenly pulled out and Kodak/ORC began frantically looking for a buyer - none was found. So, until Dolby officially premiered Dolby SR-D with Batman Returns in late 1992 (there had been a few test screenings of prototype SR-D equipment), digital sound in theaters was kind of a dead issue.

Anyway, back to T2 - when the DVD was released I called Artisan and asked them what sound master they had used for the 5.1 Dolby Digital soundtrack - it took them a day or so to get back to me but they confirmed that it was the unlimited mix created for the Cinema Digital Sound prints. And as I stated in my earlier post, no other DVD or Blu-ray has used the CDS mix - the later discs have all had massive remixes - the CDS mix has a more "quadraphonic" soundfield to it with lots of side-wall phantom imaging. You can hear the dramatic difference in the first few mi utes of the film. Now, some may prefer the later Surround EX and DTS-ES mixes, but I think the CDS mix is the best both in overall fidelity and in the amazing sound imaging - its almost holographic. It's just a shame the video transfer is so over enhanced on the DVD.

For those who are interested, here's a an article about the introduction of CDS and how it worked, etc... (this is the corrected download link)
http://rapidshare.com/files/757895226/Cinema%20Digital%20Sound.pdf
And here's a comparison of CDS specs with 70mm mag and 35mm Dolby Stereo.
Image


Last edited by disclord on 14 Feb 2013, 18:58, edited 1 time in total. _________________
Visit my site LaserVision Landmarks http://www.LaserVisionLandmarks.com
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 14:39 
Genuinely interested
Genuinely interested
User avatar

Joined: 02 Nov 2012, 10:29
Posts: 39
Location: United Kingdom
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
alien wrote:
There is a slight teal shift, but it look absolutely stunning on my 55" display.

Uh oh - the naughty words :lol:

Awesome background info Disclord - thanks! Do you have to register at rapidshare to download the pdf? I thought the Sensurround articles you posted links to in the Rollercoaster thread might have expired/got deleted as I got a permission denied but the same thing is happening with the CDS pdf and presumably as you posted it last night it can't have expired...
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2013, 18:57 
Absolute fan
Absolute fan
User avatar

Joined: 22 Jun 2010, 21:12
Posts: 1617
Location: Plattsburg, Missouri. USA
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 6 times
tim_p wrote:
alien wrote:
There is a slight teal shift, but it look absolutely stunning on my 55" display.

Uh oh - the naughty words :lol:

Awesome background info Disclord - thanks! Do you have to register at rapidshare to download the pdf? I thought the Sensurround articles you posted links to in the Rollercoaster thread might have expired/got deleted as I got a permission denied but the same thing is happening with the CDS pdf and presumably as you posted it last night it can't have expired...


Glad you liked the info - find a copy of the original T2 release and you'll be blown away with how much better the mix is - and it's much more holographic than all the later mixes. The phantom imaging is amazing and although not mixed for it, plays in EX/ES beautifully... And without all the added or re-EQ'd sounds. The bass during the atomic explosion is speaker damaging if you are not careful... It would have played great in Sensurround.

The Sensurround articles are deleted due to them not being downloaded in more than 30 days (RapidShare policy for free accounts), but the CDS PDF should be downloadable with no problems - I even posted the exact link it gave me to share them.

I found the problem with the link - here's the corrected info:
http://rapidshare.com/files/757895226/Cinema%20Digital%20Sound.pdf

I should have noted that the first part of the PDF is a copy of The Film Journal article when CDS was introduced and the second part is technical info on the encoding for,ar and problems with the system that I wrote based on the ORC patent and the book Advanced Digital Audio, because Kodak/ORC tried to keep the specific Delta Modulation encoding system they used secret.

Another item regarding digital film sound - Strong-Ballantyne developed a sound-on-LaserDisc based theateical system, called DLS-6 (Digital Laser Sound-6), and it stored 3 hours of 6-channel lossless PCM sound plus control, theater automation and special effects data, per disc side, interlocked with the film via standard 24-bit SMPTE time code. A modified Pioneer Industrial player was used and data was stored directly on on disc like a CD and not using FM carriers/subcarriers like a typical LD. Like SDDS and CDS, the playback unit/processor was also a full digital parametric EQ system and volume contol that could stand alone without requiring interfacing to a Dolby or Ultra-Stereo cinema processor - it maintained the highest quality sound since the audio didn't have to pass through any analog processing. For films over 3 hours in length the disc player would auto-reverse with audio data pre-stored in the processors RAM memory to cover the side-change gap, thus preventing any reversion to the analog backup. The DLS-6 system pre-dated DTS by several years but due to its sound-on-disc approach, could find no industry support or even get a trial run, which is a shame since it was a true linear 16-bit PCM system that used no data compression whatsoever and had superb specs. Strong-Ballantyne had agreements with Optical Data Corporation to provide them with RLV (recordable) copies of DLS-6 discs with less than 24 hours notice and with Pioneer LDCA Industrial and 3M/Imation to produce conventionally pressed DLS-6 discs with no more than a one-week turn around for standard release timeframes.

Besides demo films, only a few reels of Universal Soldier were shown in DLS-6 at ShoWest in 1992, before the films release and several reels of Total Recall were also demo'd. Then DTS came out the next year with MCA and Universal buying into the company and practically giving it away to theaters ($1,200 for 6-track digital sound was a no-Brainer purchase for theaters considering that was their concession profits from a few hours on a busy weekend - and DTS was especially irresistible when compared to Dolby's almost 20 grand price and even compared to the non-Universal-subsidized retail $6,500 price of the DTS-6 system.)

One last interesting note on digital film sound - Sony's original plan for SDDS, which they began developing in 1988, was 4 interlocked DAT tapes to provide 8-channel audio. The DAT based SDDS processor would contain enough memory to store 15-30 seconds of data to give the DAT tape time to FF or RW to find the next playback point in the case of a film break or bad edit. In-house testing though showed that even using an air-bearing loading mechanism for threading the DAT tape (taken from their industrial computer storage DAT data units), the system simply wasn't robust enough to take the day in, day out punishment of the theatrical environment, So they farmed out the development of an on-film data storage system to Semetex Corporation, the company who came up with the on-film data storage format - Sony decided on the pro version of ATRAC, which is audibly lossless, unlike most versions of the consumer ATRAC coding for tha audio data reduction system. They even had the DVD Forum include a 2.5mbp/s allocation on the disc for an 8-channel home SDDS system - sadly, they never used it. While DTS Coherent Acoustics is an excellent data reduction system, I personally believe that ATRAC sounds better, and like DTS and Dolby AC-3, it can handle up to 24-bit resolution. Since Sony discontinued the SDDS format in 2004, I really thought they would name the 7.1 channel tracks on Blu-ray SDDS - which makes sense considering most people know SDDS had 8-channels.
_________________
Visit my site LaserVision Landmarks http://www.LaserVisionLandmarks.com
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2013, 01:18 
Advanced fan
Advanced fan
User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 10:13
Posts: 817
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 6 times
No tim, the naughty words are digital noise reduction or edge enhancement of which this fantastic remaster has none of. The slight teal shift apparently is more accurate to what Cameron was originally going for which means previous home video releases have been incorrect.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2013, 17:32 
Genuinely interested
Genuinely interested
User avatar

Joined: 02 Nov 2012, 10:29
Posts: 39
Location: United Kingdom
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Yes, they're probably worse alien ;)

Thanks for updating the link disclord - interesting reading. It's a shame that no backup for a cutting edge technology signalled it's quick demise. I recently picked up the Artisan T2 dvd after reading an old post of yours at AVS. Haven't watched it yet but looking forward to it after seeing it on original release and just stereo tv broadcasts thereafter!

SDDS for the home - Sony missed a trick didn't they? Though replicating a true 5 across the front wouldn't be happening in my lounge :thumbdown: and I don't know how much separation you'd perceive with 5 speakers spread across the width of a 32" tv lol. Will just have to make do with the trailers on youtube...
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2013, 18:24 
Confirmed Padawan
Confirmed Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 10 Oct 2006, 17:10
Posts: 3751
Location: United Kingdom
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 3 times
tim_p wrote:
Yes, they're probably worse alien ;)

Thanks for updating the link disclord - interesting reading. It's a shame that no backup for a cutting edge technology signalled it's quick demise. I recently picked up the Artisan T2 dvd after reading an old post of yours at AVS. Haven't watched it yet but looking forward to it after seeing it on original release and just stereo tv broadcasts thereafter!

SDDS for the home - Sony missed a trick didn't they? Though replicating a true 5 across the front wouldn't be happening in my lounge :thumbdown: and I don't know how much separation you'd perceive with 5 speakers spread across the width of a 32" tv lol. Will just have to make do with the trailers on youtube...


SDDS Trailer
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl1cV1apn2I

I like it with fish its like having a fish aquarium followed by the jungle and finally going down deep into a volcano. The rumble of SDDS and Lucasfilm THX almost destroyed the town it was that deep. :mrgreen:

SDDS Quest Theatrical Trailer Sony Dynamic Digital Sound *ENHANCED
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7-ed2g7tAM
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 29 Mar 2013, 22:44 
Shows curiousity
Shows curiousity
User avatar

Joined: 23 Jul 2006, 17:16
Posts: 26
Location: United Kingdom
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 0 time
Just looked at the T2 hi-vision and sqz discs.. Good work Takou..

Personally i think the hi-vision looks too green, the PILF-2555 squeeze disc is the business. Definitely my favourite from my LD's, though i dont have the hi-vision version.

I only have the one DVD, the region 1 THX 1998 Artisan Ultimate Edition, and the squeeze ld i think is better in both picture and DD sound..

The US DD LD [LD68952-2DD] is good, but you realise HOW GOOD the original pro logic special edition release [LD 82997-2WS] was on its debut. In its own way it is the one to own if you only want one copy. Unlike us lot with many.. :crazy:
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 31 Mar 2013, 23:37 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 03 Sep 2012, 13:37
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
i too have multiple copies of T2, it's one of my ALL TIME favorite movies! truly inspiring.
LD and LD Box set
BluRay SkyNet disc
DVD
had the VHS long ago.
love it!
_________________
http://www.lddb.com/collection.php?acti ... &user=tsak
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 23 May 2013, 06:23 
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 4240
Location: United States
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 323 times
So what's everyone's opinion of Terminator 2: Judgment Day: Special Edition (1991) (Uncut) [PSE82997-6WS] compared to these others?
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 14 Oct 2013, 16:02 
User avatar
Quote:
BS I don't believe that for one moment. I was there when the films played in the cinema and they NEVER looked as appalling as these on consumer video. Its BS they BS us all later on with a new transfer BS! BS! BS! BS! BS! :twisted:


Sorry for resurrecting a somewhat old thread but...

After all these comparisons which version appears truer to the original theatre experience from the early 90's? I also can't help but notice pictures getting white crush from overly high brightness (or contrast?) in those bright light scenes in the beginning. The hivision disc looks like it's zoomed in.

I'm equally upset about Evil Dead 2 on bluray. It looks horrible! Despite a new release with sharper picture and no digital filtering, from lionsgate and a german uncut wood edition from studio canal, it still looks like crap (loaded with black crush and blue color timing)! Very similar to Terminator 2's problem.

It's a true shame bluray and DVD haven't been used properly and literally take people's money for crap (BS!).


Last edited by Guest on 30 Jun 2014, 21:49, edited 1 time in total.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 15 Oct 2013, 01:11 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 17 Oct 2009, 08:02
Posts: 206
Location: United States
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
And don't forget the blu-ray-added green tint on "Titanic" or the tint *removal* on the bedroom scenes in "Rocky Horror Picture Show"!
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2014, 21:02 
Genuinely interested
Genuinely interested
User avatar

Joined: 01 Aug 2013, 23:40
Posts: 62
Location: United States
Has thanked: 0 time
Been thanked: 0 time
I also saw Terminator 2 in a theater in CDS when it first came out, and it sounded great. I used to use the 1997 Live DVD (in the snapper case) for demonstration, since it had such a good mix. I believe the Artisan DVD in the regular DVD case is the same mix-can someone verify this?
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2014, 07:11 
Confirmed Padawan
Confirmed Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 10 Oct 2006, 17:10
Posts: 3751
Location: United Kingdom
Has thanked: 5 times
Been thanked: 3 times
Quote:
tsak

Image


Well I do like this shot of the HI-vision as it looks a bit natural and free of that dreadful blue tint.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2014, 06:46 
Advanced fan
Advanced fan
User avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 10:13
Posts: 817
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 6 times
laserbite34 wrote:
Quote:
tsak

Image


Well I do like this shot of the HI-vision as it looks a bit natural and free of that dreadful blue tint.

I have the 2-disc Ultimate Edition DVD, and the colour is somewhere in between the Hi-Vision and Squeezed LD versions, but remember James Cameron has always loved the colour blue.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2020, 20:14 
True fan
True fan
User avatar

Joined: 04 Apr 2004, 18:11
Posts: 306
Location: Switzerland
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 6 times
The famous PILF-2555 ist currenty for sale on YA for (for now) a fair price

Auction
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2020, 21:09 
Jedi Knight
Jedi Knight
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 4240
Location: United States
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 323 times
Wow, that’s more than I’ve ever paid for an LD from an auction site. Gaijin really are affecting LD prices in Japan.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 08:44 
Absolute fan
Absolute fan
User avatar

Joined: 01 May 2016, 06:38
Posts: 1944
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 144 times
I would've had a bid on that if I hadn't seen a Terminator/T2 double feature at the Australian Film and Sound Archive last year. I realised I like the first film much more and didn't really care about T2. Seeing it in the cinema in '91 as a 13 year old was pretty cool but as an adult it has nothing for me except that truck and later Arnie jumping into an LA stormwater drain, still cool.
_________________
Sony MDP-650, Sony MDP-355GX, Sony KVHR M36, DVDO VP-50
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Terminator 2 [*various*] NTSC/*various* (1991)
PostPosted: 12 Feb 2020, 17:27 
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05
Posts: 6279
Location: United States
Has thanked: 224 times
Been thanked: 209 times
Totally agree, with me it was the kid that killed the longevity of that film.
I can't even watch it anymore, I think that's the same with his other film Aliens, can't watch it anymore due to the little girl.

Did pickup true lies for a buck on DVD so I'll see how that is again with the little girl.

These films are focused towards people of a certain age and the films certainly don't age well with kids in them focused towards kids.
Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 2 of 2 [ 39 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: