|
It is currently 28 Apr 2024, 03:53
|
View unsolved topics | View unanswered posts
|
|
|
|
substance
|
Post subject: Re: What brand is your main LD Player? Posted: 12 Oct 2014, 19:12 |
Confirmed Padawan |
|
|
Joined: 16 May 2009, 18:05 Posts: 3588 Location: California, USA Has thanked: 28 times Been thanked: 323 times
|
On these/most players Y/C separation(comb filter) occurs early in the chain right after ADC(analog to digital convertor). Digitized signal is then fed into TBC(time base corrector). Higher quality players have (DVNR)digital video noise reduction available after TBC. Some players have basic on/off type(i.e. CLD-97) and some have more comprehensive settings(i.e. CLD-704,99 etc.) like multi-step luminance and chrominance noise reduction, sharpness etc.. After this, on simpler players right after TBC, on more advance players right after TBC + DVNR the separated signal is combined again(Y+C) for composite output and kept separate for S-Video output.
In theory, if you separate Y and C and later combine with identical filter(in reverse), the output should be equal to the original(no change) regardless 2D or 3D comb filtering as long as they perform same parameters. Keep in mind that these are digital signal processing(signal is already digitized at the comb filter) therefore you can apply a function and then apply the same function in reverse to come back to the original signal without any loss(cant say the same in analog/continuous time). So given this, 3D comb filter setting or any setting should not have any effect in the composite output since the same setting in reverse will be applied at the end to undo what the first filter did.
Now there is a 3rd option only few players employ. All above process is the same however instead of leaving Y and C separate and directly feeding them into S-video output, some players combine the signal anyway and then employ an additional comb filter here for S-video output. For example CLD-704 has a 2D comb filter to do above process and uses the same type filter to combined for composite output. CLD-99 uses this same exact board but adds a second comb filter(this time 3D comb filter) to separate the once combined signal. SO all early processing(TBC, DVNR, sharpness) happens after and 2D comb and combined with 2D comb again then separated by a 3D comb filter at the end. Some argue this is a design flaw however if above paragraph is true, it shouldn't matter. Why did they chose this way? It was probably cheaper to add a 3D comb at the end then re-designing the entire board around a 3D comb design. Pioneer engineers probably deemed the outcome would come out the same anyway(who are we to argue:)
To answer your question,the 3D comb filter setting on my HLD-X0 has tremendous effect on its S-Video output and no effect in composite output. I use the composite output as I think the 3D comb filter in the Crystalio II is slightly better than the one in HLD-X0. I left the setting at 2 because I have its S-Video output hooked up to a capture card. I hope this helps:)
_________________ Coming Soon Derman Labs Anything Of Substance
|
|
|
|
|
nissling
|
Post subject: Re: What brand is your main LD Player? Posted: 13 Oct 2014, 14:01 |
Absolute fan |
|
|
Joined: 24 Jun 2010, 10:23 Posts: 1645 Location: Sweden Has thanked: 11 times Been thanked: 80 times
|
I was aware of the first and third option but I've never thought of the second one, which I think is what's in the HLD-X0? Great explaination by the way. It's incredibly difficult to judge the picture quality if the video is just a shot of the screen but I can still see how nice the HLD-X0 performs with the CII. There's a VPS-3300 on eBay at the moment that I've thought about buying but I'm not sure at all. I know the 3800 has a built in media player and hard drive but the 3300 would most likely satisfy my needs.
|
|
|
|
|
happycube
|
Post subject: Re: What brand is your main LD Player? Posted: 06 Nov 2014, 18:07 |
Absolute fan |
|
|
Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 18:02 Posts: 1614 Location: United States Has thanked: 71 times Been thanked: 88 times
|
substance wrote: On these/most players Y/C separation(comb filter) occurs early in the chain right after ADC(analog to digital convertor). Digitized signal is then fed into TBC(time base corrector). Actually the ADC and TBC are on the same chip in later players - the Sony 2D comb filter was fed digitally from that chip. Comb filtering pre-TBC'd video would be much trickier as it would have to adapt for different color carrier frequencies. CED players' comb filter (from 1.53 to standard 3.58) had to do in an analog fashion to keep costs down, but such things had no place on a 1990's LD player with S-Video... or a hypothetical 1990's CED player, for that matter It's possible the NEC 3D filters could do the TBC, but almost certainly not used for that. There's an unstuffed digital output port on the 406/606/R5 board that was probably put there to support the R7G.
_________________ Happycube Labs: Where the past is being re-made, today. [meep!]
|
|
|
|
|
happycube
|
Post subject: Re: What brand is your main LD Player? Posted: 06 Nov 2014, 21:24 |
Absolute fan |
|
|
Joined: 18 Apr 2012, 18:02 Posts: 1614 Location: United States Has thanked: 71 times Been thanked: 88 times
|
(edited out bad info) The digital TBC in LD players is 14.318mhz/4fsc, 8 bits (and sometimes 8 bits+sync) - definitely enough to keep an 'analog' look. It's interesting how people underestimate how much digital stuff goes on in LD players - even Kurtis thought the S104 had an analog TBC, but the service manual says otherwise (For those who do want a simple all-analog player, I recommend the V2400.) I think the absolute mininum would be around 7.2mhz, but I think you would have problems with it. It's a lot easier to do digital comb filtering at 4fsc/14.3mhz, each pixel is at a consistent 90degree phase of the color data. The post-TBC tap point would be too late in the chain to help a lot of players - ghosting, ringing and CLV smear are introduced in the analog processing stages. It would still be an improvement, especially if you don't have fancy equipment lying around. For a first pass you could bridge the digital output to USB and then play around with comb/nr codes with quicker turnaround time. Playing with LD signals is a great way to learn a lot about DSP. I definitely know a lot more now than when I started, but there's so much more to know. Remind me some time and I can post some post-TBC, pre-comb filtering ouptut from my software project, and some raw composite captures off my (admittedly, somewhat intentionally, mediocre) V2800. You could get your feet wet on creating comb filtering/NR processing with those...
_________________ Happycube Labs: Where the past is being re-made, today. [meep!]
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
Post subject: Re: What brand is your main LD Player? Posted: 18 Mar 2015, 00:41 |
|
My main LD player at the moment is a Pioneer CDL-D501 that we got as part of a $75 buy it all deal. Needs some tlc and maintenance eventually but, still runs like a champ! Like a 1993 date on the back if I remember right. Our back-up is an LD-V2200 industrial player, it is in for repair very soon but when she worked she was great for an old, school house reject that hadn't been run I who knows how long, and worked up until a couple years ago.
|
|
|
|
|
firehorse_44
|
Post subject: Re: What brand is your main LD Player? Posted: 18 Mar 2015, 11:56 |
Absolute fan |
|
|
Joined: 11 Jun 2008, 06:10 Posts: 1617 Location: Milky Way-Sol System-Terra-USA-North Carlolina. Has thanked: 561 times Been thanked: 239 times
|
alien wrote: firehorse_44 wrote: Pioneer DVL-919 - Manufactured January 2007 - Does it actually say "Manufactured January 2007" at the back of the actual player itself? Because I've done a lot of speculating of these 2004 to 2009 manufactured dates of certain models, but I don't think I've heard anyone categorically confirm it with their own players. Next to the URL tag on the back face it states plainly "January 2007" which obviously implies manufacture period. Apologies for the late posting to your query alien.......... Care to still share your speculation if still relevant ?
_________________ Acta Non Verba ..... Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum .... Si Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc ......
|
|
|
|
|
Guest
|
Post subject: Re: What brand is your main LD Player? Posted: 19 Jul 2015, 21:17 |
|
My LX-K700 developed an odd flicker across the top edge of the screen between scene changes. I can't help but think it is a repairable issue with proper calibration. I may have this player repaired. Is grasshopper still providing service?
For now I'm moving on to my LX-900. I have yet to compare side by side with my reference CD music of choice, Pet Shop Boys' Behaviour. So far the LX-K700's audio seems to be on par for movie viewing. Does anyone have better insight into the DAC of the LX-K700? I haven't opened it up but I would be willing to. Marantz AV500/MM500, DLK 1/2 fronts, DLK 2 rears, RCA lineaum center, no sub yet.
PQ is slightly better but would be better judged without the annoyance of the flicker. I would say we're in the realm of diminishing returns and I don't have the equipment or know-how to test in that realm. My opinion now is that the LX-K700 is a very very fine player, and an outstanding choice for a newcomer, provided you can find a remote or seek out a player that comes with one. Basic video features on the LX-700 are very poor without a remote.
|
|
|
|
|
confederate
|
Post subject: Re: What brand is your main LD Player? Posted: 20 Jul 2015, 12:05 |
Advanced fan |
|
|
Joined: 23 Jun 2013, 02:37 Posts: 726 Location: Germany Has thanked: 116 times Been thanked: 60 times
|
lons_vex wrote: There was an explanation somewhere why high end players cannot play audio-CD's. However it has been a long time since I read that, and I hope I do not remember wrongly.
It basically said that the clamp mechanism is quite different for LD and CD and is a "compromise". If you make a clamp mechanism straight for 8" and 12" LD only, it is spot on for that system and delivers "better quality".
While I'm curious too what a CD would sound like in a X0 or X9, I'll also have to say that a dedicated high-end CD Player, that can't play anything else but CD's, will always sound better than some multi disc machine. So it's not really a loss. It is a problem though that you cannot play 3" VSD on such machines, but that is what you can use the 925 for. I appreciate the comment and explanation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot post attachments in this forum
|
|