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 Post subject: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 10 Jan 2017, 18:25 
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I did some laserdisc restoration projects in the past, but I had not a top-of-the-line capture card, nor the abilities to extract every possible detail...

But lately I was working on Star Wars Episode I - The Phantom Menace (theatrical cut); its best version is the Japanese laserdisc, and PAL DVB recordings; despite the latter is quite good, during my test I noted that the LD is still a better choice.

So, here what is possible to got from a laserdisc: http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/195979
The player used was the Pioneer HLD-X9, the card a SweetSpot (a.k.a. PDI Deluxe), captured with VirtualDub, and cleaned, upscaled, and with a grain plate added, using Avisynth.

Of course, it all depends from several factors - the master used to make the disc, the player used for the capture, the capture card and its settings, the post processing used etc. so this result cannot be reached for every title.

But, in the few cases where the best version of a given movie is a laserdisc, then it's possible, with some effort, have a very good result, probably better than a DVD...

Opinions?
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2017, 01:26 
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That looks impressive
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 12 Jan 2017, 03:05 
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It would be interesting to see more from different sources. A lot of people use that movie because it's a good LD but it's extremely drained of color most of the way through. The screenshot shown uses the same pallet as Quake II or a hole in the ground much like the rest if the movie. Of course, color is LD's weak point so...maybe that's why we use it so much. :)

Out of curiosity, since this is a thread with a similar subject, what is everyone's opinion of these captures I made:

https://youtu.be/6oK6X5uikyI

https://youtu.be/q5jOMLbyozg

https://youtu.be/fU1JWHDPc0o

https://youtu.be/8b5vec5hZbQ

These aren't the best ones I've done, but they are the best of the ones YouTube hasn't taken down. None of these were LDs that "pop" like the mid-90s and up where digital mastering made everything look more amazing...until you look closely. You know, the edge enhanced stuff with more color (and color noise) which is pure coincidence. These are all the sort of plain unrestored LDs that tend to look the best as long as your equipment is up to the task.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2017, 01:43 
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signofzeta, your captures are nice; but source is a bit dated, so, as you said, it doesn't "pop"! :D

About EP1: no color correction at all, so with a bit of it, colors could be enhanced - don't know how much, but surely better than this.

Found an old comparison I did few years ago; just another way to improve quality:
Image
first two are PAL and NTSC (can't remember which is which); third is the combination of both, cleaned; captured at the time using a CLD-D925 (or maybe a LD-V4300D), and a capture card based on the Philips chipset. Combining two images from a PAL and NTSC captures, upscaled, and cleaned, it is possible to enhance the quality of each single capture a lot:
http://screenshotcomparison.com/comparison/125558

Today, with the HLD-X9 (but stuck with old mid PAL players) and an AJA video card, I think I could do better than this, but it gives you an idea; maybe the limit of the laserdisc medium is reached, don't know how much room there is for further improvement in resolution - unless we use a neural network to upscale its low resolution image to HD, but that's another story...
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2017, 15:16 
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laserdisc.ws wrote:
Found an old comparison I did few years ago; just another way to improve quality:
Image


How did the 3rd image endup being a different frame if it was a combination of the 2 previous images?

The reason for asking is the guy in black walking across to Darth Vader in the image has his hands and feet in completely different positions to the previous 2 images so combining images 1 and 2 would never produce image 3.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 13 Jan 2017, 23:01 
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Now that you say it, it's true! Well, it's just because I picked up the wrong frame, that's all...
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 15 Jan 2017, 00:48 
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I always enjoy seeing what quality others have been able to achieve. I'm just a rookie, but here is my youtube channel with LD captures that I make:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCCqzQlIb8xd0ZyVRBqrUsbA/videos?view=0&sort=dd&shelf_id=0

BTW, this video is IMHO the best instructional video for beginners wanting to capture from VHS or LaserDisc:
https://youtu.be/sn_TDa9zY1c
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 17 Jan 2017, 06:38 
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I don't think you can do better than the ADV7842 for a 3D comb filter. It's a really new design (2011 or so, IIRC) and I can't get the thing to artifact. It's far better than the TI TVP-5160; in a different league. The member here named substance agrees.

It's present in the Lumagen 2144, but that's rather expensive. I use the EVAL-ADV7842-7511 evaluation board to do captures from my Pioneer LD-S2. I'm moving things around at the moment, so I don't have it hooked up, but here's what I could pull from my significantly-more-noisy Pioneer LD-V8000 a few months ago with it: http://i.imgur.com/eyRabWU.png

All of the registers are at default values here. It does that without being tuned to the 8000 and keep in mind that I can't get the thing to artifact.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017, 00:13 
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For the Evaluation board have you added external DDR memory and is this a requirement for enabling the 3D comb filter?
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 18 Jan 2017, 22:54 
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kencol wrote:
For the Evaluation board have you added external DDR memory and is this a requirement for enabling the 3D comb filter?

The evaluation board comes with sufficient memory onboard to run any permutation of its features without issue. References around the WWW to external DDR memory are for people integrating the ADV7842 into their product.

And, yes, the memory is needed for the 3D comb filter since it examines a frame buffer; they all do, really.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017, 09:32 
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Ah ok, understood.

For laserdisc does the board provide decent deinterlacing or do you purely use it for the comb filter and then output at 480i to another device for deinterlacing and scaling? Also it is possible to change the parameters of the filter or they fixed?
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017, 13:37 
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The latest capture card I acquired, the Xena LH (aka Kona LH) seems to have not a 3D comb filter; but, apart the lack of this (important) feature, it's a very high end card, with otherwise excellent features!

I wonder if, passing through the Panasonic DMR-ES15 DVD recorder, and its TBC and 3D comb filter, I will gain the latter qualities, without losing details/color fidelity, and so on...
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 19 Jan 2017, 16:59 
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kencol wrote:
Ah ok, understood.

For laserdisc does the board provide decent deinterlacing or do you purely use it for the comb filter and then output at 480i to another device for deinterlacing and scaling? Also it is possible to change the parameters of the filter or they fixed?
I use my Blackmagic UltraStudio MiniRecorder to capture the 480i over HDMI and then I do all of my IVTC/deinterlacing in software afterward (VapourSynth).

With that being said, I don't imagine it would be any sort of a challenge to hook it up to something like a DVDO VP50 Pro.

Many (most?) of the ADV7842 registers are read-write. The board gives you the ability to modify them at any time via a builtin serial (RS-232C via DB-9) connection or via USB 2.0 with special Windows-only software that also enables you to see the giant register map in semi-realtime.

ADV7842 registers: http://www.analog.com/media/en/technica ... UG-214.pdf
ADV7511 registers: http://www.analog.com/media/en/technica ... _Guide.pdf
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017, 15:12 
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That's interesting. Do you change the comb filter parameters much depending on disc/player you're using or are the default settings of the board already optimised?
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017, 17:05 
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kencol wrote:
That's interesting. Do you change the comb filter parameters much depending on disc/player you're using or are the default settings of the board already optimised?
The default settings are fantastic, but it's usually best to dial it in per player since it would just be a pain in the butt to try to do it per title.

My order is:
    1. Initially dial-in your settings against the zone plate on GGV1069 (no motion)
    2. Now, dial back your settings if you get artifacts with a very sharp shot change with significant changes in chroma (large motion)
    3. Now, dial your settings back up a bit against the Snell & Wilcox Zone Plate on Video Essentials (medium motion)
    4. Finally, dial back your settings further if you get artifacts with the ballerina sequence on Video Essentials (small motion)
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017, 17:55 
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Great! That's a good system for setting up 3D comb filter. I'm currently using Crystalio II and will be interesting to see how this compares.

Because this is just a bare board what do you use to mount it in/to?
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 20 Jan 2017, 18:03 
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kencol wrote:
Great! That's a good system for setting up 3D comb filter. I'm currently using Crystalio II and will be interesting to see how this compares.

Because this is just a bare board what do you use to mount it in/to?
I drilled some holes in a NEMA box.

I'm pretty sure I purchased this one: http://www.homedepot.com/p/10-in-x-10-i ... /100118037

Make sure you purchase standoffs with a corresponding nut to tighten them in place.

The board is pretty sensitive to noise, so the enclosure is absolutely necessary.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 21 Jan 2017, 14:58 
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Thanks. Looking forward to seeing what it can do.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2017, 02:12 
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So the board arrived and I have to say first impressions are very promising. The comb filter is incredible!

With regard to the board being sensitive to noise I am getting traveling diagonal lines which looks like interference (faint but noticeable) and they seem to come and go depending which way the wind is blowing. Will mounting it in an enclosure stop this? I notice I can remove these lines/noise by switching from the 36bit 4444 profile to the 10bit profile and then back again.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeezing every bit of detail out of a laserdisc
PostPosted: 25 Jan 2017, 14:34 
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If you place it inside a highly conductive enclosure, you create a faraday's cage. The magnetic field inside a faraday's cage is zero.
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