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 Post subject: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 16:31 
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I saw someone claiming that the LD is the only way to see the movie in it's original colours, but I swore that the original DVD release also used the same colour grading - but without any screenshots to prove things either way, that debate was quickly brought to a halt.

But I just came across this. Just one screenshot so it's not much to go on, but it at least seems to suggest that the colours were not significantly altered between the LD and the DVD, if they were altered at all.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 18:00 
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There was a lot of discussion back when the title first came out. I personally thought the DVD was TOO green. The LaserDisc has different color timing. I have an A/B screen shot somewhere at home that I made. Let me see if I can dig it up.

So not as "dramatic" as I remembered, but here you go...
Image


Last edited by blam1 on 30 Jul 2018, 04:04, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 19:32 
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There is mention in a topic but I can't remember which one.
I believe laserbite posted pictures of his LD and DVD also.
If you have the time to search the forum you may find it LOL
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 22:32 
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rein-o wrote:
There is mention in a topic but I can't remember which one.
I believe laserbite posted pictures of his LD and DVD also.
If you have the time to search the forum you may find it LOL

Did, the images are all gone.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 22:47 
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takeshi666 wrote:
rein-o wrote:
There is mention in a topic but I can't remember which one.
I believe laserbite posted pictures of his LD and DVD also.
If you have the time to search the forum you may find it LOL

Did, the images are all gone.

Oh Schiznich :(
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 26 Jul 2018, 22:48 
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I would assume not every scene in the movie was subjected to color grading.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 10:27 
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takeshi666 wrote:
I saw someone claiming that the LD is the only way to see the movie in it's original colours, but I swore that the original DVD release also used the same colour grading - but without any screenshots to prove things either way, that debate was quickly brought to a halt.

But I just came across this. Just one screenshot so it's not much to go on, but it at least seems to suggest that the colours were not significantly altered between the LD and the DVD, if they were altered at all.


That's my tweet, I'm LaserdiscTurtle on there. I actually got those screenshot from the discussion on here that other people have already mentioned. I think the discussion was from the The Laserdisc Screenshot Thread but many of the pictures have since disappeared. I think the captures were made by nissling but I could be wrong.

Hope this helps.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 11:07 
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I can still see my captures. Could try to reupload them if anyone is interested.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 13:54 
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I'm interested. Not that the LD is even buyable at this point, but I am curious.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 16:20 
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Photobucket really hates me, so it took me much more effort than I first thought to get these captures saved and so I uploaded them again. Also added two screenshots from the DVD.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DBFWS ... lA2g5uGVfw
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 17:30 
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nissling wrote:
Photobucket really hates me, so it took me much more effort than I first thought to get these captures saved and so I uploaded them again. Also added two screenshots from the DVD.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1DBFWS ... lA2g5uGVfw

Photobucket hates everybody. I've moved on to using imgur or puush entirely.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 17:44 
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......and the color grading of BOTH is completely different to the original 35mm....so save your money and forget the mess cause this is precisely one of the cases
where te DVD and the LD received altered transfers (some say the producers wanted it that way for the DVD)
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 18:04 
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Just a suggestion: Get the UHD-BD and forget about everything else. In fact, it's a really nice release that makes great use of the format. While both the LD and DVD were great for the time, it's very clear that we've moved a long way in terms of home video since then.

EDIT: I stopped using Photobucket several years ago, but have plenty of photos left there. Nowadays I just use Google Drive. Not convenient for forums but much easier to handle.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 19:09 
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I have it on regular BD, which is pretty good. Mostly just curious about the comparisons.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 27 Jul 2018, 22:55 
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gypsy wrote:
I have it on regular BD, which is pretty good. Mostly just curious about the comparisons.

This website is your friend.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 19:29 
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You said" Just a suggestion: Get the UHD-BD and forget about everything else. In fact, it's a really nice release that makes great use of the format. While both the LD and DVD were great for the time, it's very clear that we've moved a long way in terms of home video since then."

Have we?. Yes restoration in the digital age has become much easier and so much more can be done but I'm hearing way too many complaints from people about the colour look and feel of a lot of films. Their look, timing and even shifting from what was seen in the cinema. The "teal look" seems to be a particular bug bear that comes up time and time again. The main complaint being that a lot of these restoration experts are simply not familiar with the original look and feel of the film they are restoring. Scanners is a good example of a pressing that divided fans when it came out on Criterion blu-ray.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 20:03 
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It's so funny how all people are complaining about "history revision" yet have no experience whatsoever in this business. I'm a film restorer and colorist. Here's a little thing for you all to consider before you start yelling how inaccurate modern releases are:

During the 80s and 90s, most TV manufacturers (especially Sony with their Trinitron sets) had such terrible accuracy out of the box with major blue push. We do see this kind of torch mode today of course, but back then there was really not as much interest for consumers to calibrate their displays and as the movie studios have always been interested in making money, most films that appeared on home video and Laserdisc were to a certain point color timed to compensate for these inaccurate sets (hence red push was very common on masters in this era of time). This meant that pretty much every DVD you'll find by MGM released prior to 2005 or such will have an overly reddish tone and all share the exact same characteristic. Only problem however is that most of these films had much more sophisticated color timings than what we saw on VHS and DVD yet people still take this for granted.

And this becomes extremely clear when you start to have a look at the physical films in an archive. Theatrical prints, even though they never tend to have much sharpness, are usually what we go after. And they rarely have much in common with an outdated VHS, Laserdisc or DVD. Of course we can still have a look at a home video release just for the sake of it, but we know that it has been going through way too many compromises to be used as a reference.

For instance, I had the chance to check out Thief on a Swedish 35mm print from the early 80s. I kept the new grade that's used on the Criterion and Arrow releases (Director's Cut only), as people have complained for years for it being inaccurate. Look at this comparison: http://www.caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1& ... 07&i=6&l=0
And guess what? This scene was so cold and blue, even when only going through a photochemical process, that's it's not even debateable. The MGM was so off you wouldn't believe it, while the restoration by Criterion keeps it all intact.

Many people complained about the Scanners Blu-Ray by Criterion yet relatively few (in contrast) seem to even have seen it. I've got the BD myself and have honestly no doubt that it's an accurate presentation of the films intended look. The entire process was also supervised by David Cronenberg himself and from my experience, both directors and cinematagraphers tend to remember the color timings and gradings that were used for their films.

As a colorist at one the oldest film archives in the world, I have no intention in changing how the films I grade are supposed to look. I can do plenty of research before I settle down with my work, but sometimes you will have to take a chance if it's unclear just how the film was really supposed to look. Then I will have to look at other factors that play in and try to make a decision from there, but I don't go to Blu-Ray.com or this forum to ask for suggestions. I have a very difficult time believing that someone who hangs around there or at this place, who I don't know through my job, would be of any help when I'm facing a problem like that.
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 28 Jul 2018, 21:57 
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But lets not forget that a film like The Matrix was released on formats a few months after they were in the theaters.

So in all reality the first pressings, like vinyl are the closest to the original source masters that we can actually get before any other "specialists" "restorers" or "Colorists" get their hands on it.

We aren't talking about a classic film, music or painting that has been poorly taken care of. We are talking about a film that is now only what 19 years old?

Just like music released on CD and Vinyl at the same time, I'm not talking about reissues but things that were released in the 80s, 90s and 00's.

You can't just say everything from that time is garbage and we have been choking on it and finally since you are around we can have some good quality stuff now.....
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 02:32 
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nissling wrote:
It's so funny how all people are complaining about "history revision" yet have no experience whatsoever in this business. I'm a film restorer and colorist. Here's a little thing for you all to consider before you start yelling how inaccurate modern releases are:

During the 80s and 90s, most TV manufacturers (especially Sony with their Trinitron sets) had such terrible accuracy out of the box with major blue push. We do see this kind of torch mode today of course, but back then there was really not as much interest for consumers to calibrate their displays and as the movie studios have always been interested in making money, most films that appeared on home video and Laserdisc were to a certain point color timed to compensate for these inaccurate sets (hence red push was very common on masters in this era of time). This meant that pretty much every DVD you'll find by MGM released prior to 2005 or such will have an overly reddish tone and all share the exact same characteristic. Only problem however is that most of these films had much more sophisticated color timings than what we saw on VHS and DVD yet people still take this for granted.

And this becomes extremely clear when you start to have a look at the physical films in an archive. Theatrical prints, even though they never tend to have much sharpness, are usually what we go after. And they rarely have much in common with an outdated VHS, Laserdisc or DVD. Of course we can still have a look at a home video release just for the sake of it, but we know that it has been going through way too many compromises to be used as a reference.

For instance, I had the chance to check out Thief on a Swedish 35mm print from the early 80s. I kept the new grade that's used on the Criterion and Arrow releases (Director's Cut only), as people have complained for years for it being inaccurate. Look at this comparison: http://www.caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1& ... 07&i=6&l=0
And guess what? This scene was so cold and blue, even when only going through a photochemical process, that's it's not even debateable. The MGM was so off you wouldn't believe it, while the restoration by Criterion keeps it all intact.

Many people complained about the Scanners Blu-Ray by Criterion yet relatively few (in contrast) seem to even have seen it. I've got the BD myself and have honestly no doubt that it's an accurate presentation of the films intended look. The entire process was also supervised by David Cronenberg himself and from my experience, both directors and cinematagraphers tend to remember the color timings and gradings that were used for their films.

As a colorist at one the oldest film archives in the world, I have no intention in changing how the films I grade are supposed to look. I can do plenty of research before I settle down with my work, but sometimes you will have to take a chance if it's unclear just how the film was really supposed to look. Then I will have to look at other factors that play in and try to make a decision from there, but I don't go to Blu-Ray.com or this forum to ask for suggestions. I have a very difficult time believing that someone who hangs around there or at this place, who I don't know through my job, would be of any help when I'm facing a problem like that.





Thank you nissling ! Very informative post......
Cheers !
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 Post subject: Re: The Matrix LD vs DVD
PostPosted: 29 Jul 2018, 02:54 
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Any films i comment on I have seen in the cinema. I saw a hell of a lot of films when I when I was younger especially in specialist theatres. Some films I saw maybe more times than I should have. Now I'm not in the restoration business or do film restoration or anything like that but Scanners (in the cinema) is not the film that Criterion released on blu-ray to my eyes anyway. A more recent film which disappointed me was the restoration of The Dam Busters which I saw in the theatre a few months ago. It wasn't the film I saw a few times back in the 1980's. (OK that was a film print). The remastered version didn't have the jet blacks or the higher contract on the prints I saw back then. So which is right, a film I saw back in the theatre in the 70's or 80's which had probably been through the projector a few times and a bit or wear or tear or the restored/revised version we're getting today in the digital age. Certainly Criterion's 2001 CAV pressing on laserdisc bears no resemble to the blu-ray doing the rounds or the recent 2001 cinema showing which I was lucky to see. If I"m confused a lot. Yes I am. Once in a while a film comes along and I go "I'm sure that's not now I remember that in the cinema". Could be an age thing or maybe I'm used to a version that was never meant to be and should never have been the default version....... I wave the white flag now....
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