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pbiancardi
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Post subject: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 12:58 |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 16:35 Posts: 555 Location: United States Has thanked: 2 times Been thanked: 76 times
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I have had this discussion in the past with some people, not sure I completely understand the theory so hoping someone can explain.
So inside of players (with the exception of players without S-Video) the signal gets separated internally (using the players built in comb filter), TBC and NR are applied and then the separated signal is sent out via S-Video but the signal is recombined (again using the players built in comb filter) to be sent out the composite. First off is this statement correct?
Assuming that statement is correct could some players "damage" the signal with the separation / recombining or is this a 1:1 transition because the same comb filter is recombining it (this is where I have heard conflicting reports, some say the damage is done, some say its a 1:1 transition)?
Again assuming that first statement is correct then does the quality of the players comb filter actually matter even if using composite out (since the comb filter is being used internally, IE CLD-99 is better than CLD-D704 though everyone claims they are the same via composite out)?
And finally here is the main thing I am working on and wondering about (have experimented before and just started again), Player S-Video out -> DPS-575 (which corrects Y/C delay, and uses proc amp to correct colors / brightness / contrast / etc) then composite out of DPS-575 (which in theory does a better job of recombining the signal than the player) to video processor (be it Lumagen, C2, whatever) so that the high end comb filter in the processor gets the cleanest signal possible to work with. Does it make any sense to do it this way?
It has long been stated (by nearly everyone) to just disregard the S-Video out of any player and use the composite (since LD is native composite signal), the overall question is does this actually make sense or has the "damage already been done" internally by the player?
_________________ Sony HIL-C2EX w/ AC3 Sony HIL-C1 w/ AC3 Sony MDP-999
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kencol
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 14:31 |
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Joined: 29 Oct 2013, 15:56 Posts: 123 Location: United Kingdom Has thanked: 5 times Been thanked: 5 times
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I have found this to be a better signal chain for the LD-X1 (S2). I feed the S-Video from the player into a Snell & Wilcox TBS 190 to recombine and output composite to C2. See thread: [LD-X1] composite problemThe X1 doesn't do a good job at recombining the S-video signal back to composite. I imagine it depends on the player and how accurately it recombines the Y/C. I've not tried this with other players but I will do some tests to find out if any improvements are made.
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pbiancardi
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 15:47 |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 16:35 Posts: 555 Location: United States Has thanked: 2 times Been thanked: 76 times
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kencol wrote: I have found this to be a better signal chain for the LD-X1 (S2). I feed the S-Video from the player into a Snell & Wilcox TBS 190 to recombine and output composite to C2. See thread: [LD-X1] composite problemThe X1 doesn't do a good job at recombining the S-video signal back to composite. I imagine it depends on the player and how accurately it recombines the Y/C. I've not tried this with other players but I will do some tests to find out if any improvements are made. This is shockingly close to what I'm seeing with my Kenwood Z1, went to try out the SVideo for the heck of it and was amazed to see an uptick in clarity and sharpness (the Kenwood does have a 3d comb of some sort https://youtu.be/PLvt891nECM). I seem to be getting very good results with the DPS recombining and sending to C2 also.....
_________________ Sony HIL-C2EX w/ AC3 Sony HIL-C1 w/ AC3 Sony MDP-999
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pbiancardi
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 17:47 |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 16:35 Posts: 555 Location: United States Has thanked: 2 times Been thanked: 76 times
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substance wrote: chroma(color) and luma(white/brightness) overlaps in the form of ntsc in LD.
Let's say you did an absolutely terrible Y/C separation such as 1-D (notch filter). You cut the signal into two separate signals right in the middle of where Y and C overlaps. The end results would be horrendous on your TV. You would have some of that Luma leaked into Chroma and the vice versa.
How about now you combine the two signals together? Now you are back to your original signal since one signal had the entire upper portion and the other the lower portion. This is the worst case scenario but a good explanation of how recombining is none-destructive.
CLD-99 has a flaw. Instead of using the mitsubishi 3D comb filter , it uses the 2D comb filter found on the CLD-704 before the TBC. It later re-combines this for the composite output and uses the mitshubishi 3D comb filter before the S-video output.
Two reasons Pioneer did this. 1, they simply used CLD-704 and added a 3D comb filter at the end instead of completely redesigning the board. 2, when combined the effects of the 2D filter is nulled.
On players like HLD-X0 and X9, they use different components for each path. S-video path for instance gets futher noise reduction (and possibly edge enhancement) ICs. You can verify this by playing with the adjustments on composite output. You will see that some of those sliders won't alter the picture but work on S-video output.
Lumagen already has a frame based tbc and chroma delay function. CII has a line based TBC which is adequate for this sort of NTSC signal. In electronics, every component has its own signature on the output. Daisy chaining a bunch can fix some issues but may create others. Minimalistic is the safest approach for the most. But for those who have the time and resources it is not the defacto option. Also a lot of this is matter of personal opinion. I personally don't like artificially enhanced and sharpened video (or audio). For me X0 + Radiance 2144 yields the best picture. So basically you are saying no point in using SVideo at all?
_________________ Sony HIL-C2EX w/ AC3 Sony HIL-C1 w/ AC3 Sony MDP-999
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rein-o
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 19:03 |
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Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05 Posts: 8106 Location: Dullaware Has thanked: 1219 times Been thanked: 844 times
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pbiancardi wrote: So basically you are saying no point in using SVideo at all? I thought this was the norm for the past 10 years? To not use S-video.
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pbiancardi
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 19:09 |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 16:35 Posts: 555 Location: United States Has thanked: 2 times Been thanked: 76 times
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rein-o wrote: pbiancardi wrote: So basically you are saying no point in using SVideo at all? I thought this was the norm for the past 10 years? To not use S-video. No doubt, I'm just curious if this correct in every case as my eyes (and apparently other's eyes) seem to say different in some cases? I've also heard confilcting info on the internal recombining of the signals so I was curious about this. I mean let's face it a lot of the things people say about LD are just regurgitated and incorrect, how many times has someone said "the 1010 has a red laser" only to have someone here finally debunk it (and I still hear people say it does).
_________________ Sony HIL-C2EX w/ AC3 Sony HIL-C1 w/ AC3 Sony MDP-999
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rein-o
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 15 Jan 2019, 19:41 |
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Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05 Posts: 8106 Location: Dullaware Has thanked: 1219 times Been thanked: 844 times
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The only way I ever used S-video was when I had an either higher or lower quality TV and needed to use it for a player like the R7G and I'm sure the same for an S9 or any other player where at the time the insides were better than TVs or the only way you could get the bells and whistles was to use S-Video on a CRT set. Well, the 1010 is an entirely different issue, I've only heard that single person ever say it wasn't and then I believe they are gone unless they are trolling FB. That red laser issue was posted on laserdiscarchive and other top LD player guys always said it was true, even techs when they were around. But like I posted about that, no matter as even when it was sought after it was only fetching 250 so it really wasn't a big issue, I sold mine for 150 about 4 years ago and listed that it had a red laser. So its not like anybody got took, and I really do wish I still had it, as I want as many players as possible now.
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audioboyz1973
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 14:18 |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015, 15:40 Posts: 825 Location: Australia Has thanked: 105 times Been thanked: 95 times
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pbiancardi wrote: According to what substance says that should be a waste of time, That's not the impression I got from what he said: substance wrote: Daisy chaining a bunch can fix some issues but may create others. Minimalistic is the safest approach for the most. But for those who have the time and resources it is not the defacto option. I got from that it could be worth trying if you have the capability.
_________________ Looking for Hi-Vision Discs (MUSE or HDVS).......
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pbiancardi
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 14:42 |
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 16:35 Posts: 555 Location: United States Has thanked: 2 times Been thanked: 76 times
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audioboyz1973 wrote: pbiancardi wrote: According to what substance says that should be a waste of time, That's not the impression I got from what he said: substance wrote: Daisy chaining a bunch can fix some issues but may create others. Minimalistic is the safest approach for the most. But for those who have the time and resources it is not the defacto option. I got from that it could be worth trying if you have the capability. Yeah I guess you're right, only the crazy people like me should bother trying .
_________________ Sony HIL-C2EX w/ AC3 Sony HIL-C1 w/ AC3 Sony MDP-999
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audioboyz1973
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 15:03 |
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Joined: 16 Jun 2015, 15:40 Posts: 825 Location: Australia Has thanked: 105 times Been thanked: 95 times
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pbiancardi wrote: Yeah I guess you're right, only the crazy people like me should bother trying . haha perhaps!! As an X9 user I know there's no point for me to even try, I've tested its recombination and apparently no issues. I'm sure Substance mostly uses his X0 so same deal (I assume so anyway with no personal experience of the player). I think though if your particular player is doing a poor job of recombining then this may be worth a shot, and kencol reports a positive outcome. Almost everyone has this constant mantra "composite is better because LD is natively composite", while the second half of that is irrefutably true, the whole separation/recombination process introduces another element meaning overall this statement may not always hold true. By recombining externally using a better recombination than built into the player may very well produce a better recombined composite signal than the player does. Feed that better composite into your superior external comb filter and better result overall! (Assuming chaining the extra gear doesn't introduce its own problems!!)
_________________ Looking for Hi-Vision Discs (MUSE or HDVS).......
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substance
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Post subject: Re: Y/C separation happening in players / how to recombine. Posted: 16 Jan 2019, 21:38 |
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Joined: 16 May 2009, 18:05 Posts: 3588 Location: California, USA Has thanked: 28 times Been thanked: 323 times
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signofzeta wrote: On a lot of old video cards that had only s-video out they just gave you a pigtail that summed the two signals...by soldering them together basically. I’m pretty sure that’s all it did anyway. Presumably you’d need to attenuate. Not necessarily. Two signals no longer have overlapping frequencies and occupy separate freq. bands therefor they don’t cancel each other out or multiply when added together.
_________________ Coming Soon Derman Labs Anything Of Substance
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