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 Post subject: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 14:31 
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Hello,

As read in lot of topics here and outhere, the motor holder is a real problem... I personally need 3 stucks for players that are damaged.
The object is not available anymore, and I think its seriously over priced on eBay from seller that know the problem (60€ for one ?! omg...)

I took the decision to reproduce it, but in the "proper" way.

So after some hours of work I was able to draw the VNL1779 / VNL1700 in 3D.
The goal to achieve is to reproduce it.
As I suspected, a FDM printer is not able to print something "proper" and usable in our players, no enough details and too much things to clean.
But It was interesting for "fine tuning" the sizes of the object.

I don't have a SLA printer, so I sent the model to a prototype lab in my town to print it for me, I'll give a feedback when the object will be ready :)

Here is some pictures of the beast in 3D.

Image

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 15:47 
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I think this is a situation where you are going to have to do the old school style.
Either you or a professional make a mold the old fashion way and make them, not with 3D printers.

This was an injection mold piece and is really not going to be able to be replicated in any other way.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 16:21 
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I haven’t needed one of these since before Pioneer shut down parts distribution. When I eventually do again my plan was to hand fabricate from brass plate, rods, and solder.

While I welcome a suitable replacement from any source and 3D printing tech is improving all the time this is a very challenging piece. It needs to be strong and even the injection molded piece wasn’t tough enough so I don’t have a lot of faith in new methods. The tech needed to make this is very low by comparison. Just weld it out of brass. It’ll take less time to teach yourself that then it will to make dozens of failed plastic ones just trying to get the thing to fit in the player and a brass one will last forever.

Not that I’ve actually done it yet. :)
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 16:56 
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Solder rather than weld, also copper could work as well.
All a matter of what is easier to obtain and your metal skills. You could also go to a jeweler or foundry
and get them to make wax/metal pieces cast out of whatever you want.

Hell you could even have it made out of solid gold :lol:
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 09 Mar 2019, 19:47 
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Weld, solder, braze, it’s all the same crap. :)

That’s not a bad idea actually. Those jewelry carnies at the local art crawl could probably make one.

Many of the dimensions aren’t critical or are optional. The gear pins need to be perfect and whatever clips or screws to anything but that’s about it.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 17:50 
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Wouldn't it be cheaper / easier just to buy a player that doesn't have this issue?
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 18:46 
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pbiancardi wrote:
Wouldn't it be cheaper / easier just to buy a player that doesn't have this issue?


Probably would be cheaper but most players that did not have this part are of the older generation and some people may not like these players (e.g.: many of them did not have AC3-RF outputs) and they may even be harder to find now since they are older. Not the mention, the older the player means they may be more worn so they still need to be adjusted or fixed as well.

Also, I can attest that some people get attached to their players and would prefer to try and keep what they have going. I do own a Pioneer CLD-59 that luckily for me currently works fine but it does have the more fragile VNL1637 (so I do have some concern for the future). Regardless, it's a good looking and good performing machine that I would hate to lose even though I have many other machines that are better (and even worse) than it.


Last edited by ldfan on 26 Mar 2019, 08:46, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 20:22 
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Yeah, right now we can't be thinking of "upgrading" with the limited amount of working players and donor parts we have available.

Look at someone like misika with 3 players all with the same issue.
Even if they wanted to get a new player it will be a player that may not be able to use these parts.
So now he would be stuck with 3 broken players and 1 new-er player that may get busted and now have 4 players all with varying issues.

I think its best to look into parts now since there are still so many discs out there that others still enjoy.

On another note I've been binging on the golden age of looney tunes boxes.
In the past 2 weeks I've run my 3070 so hard that I've seen about 14 discs not counting Predator and other stuff in-between and that player
was bought new and still running with no issues.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 21:31 
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pbiancardi wrote:
Wouldn't it be cheaper / easier just to buy a player that doesn't have this issue?


It would certainly be easier, but I hate to think about players being tossed just due to a broken plastic part.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 22:00 
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cplusplus wrote:
It would certainly be easier, but I hate to think about players being tossed just due to a broken plastic part.


I totally agree with that accessment.

If one breaks down the value of all the parts in one machine, throwing it out because of one plastic part that is preventing the operation of the player is ridiculous. I definitely would try my best to see about repairing or replacing the part at all cost.


Last edited by ldfan on 26 Mar 2019, 08:47, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 22:41 
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For the moment it took just some hours of my free time.. not easy to find but i’m not in a hurry :)
The FDM tests cost me nothing (printer of a friend).

The first SLA protype cost me 11€... I expect it in few days.
It’s a « multijet fusion » printing, I invite you to watch some videos about this technic

The advantage is that when the object will be good (and I hope that the first prototype in SLA will be :D ) I’ll be able to print the part as many times as I want...

Note that my proto lab has also the possibility to « laser cut » the object in metal and it’s not very expensive compared to the original part sold by few guys on eBay...
It’s a possibility when I’ll be 100% sure of my 3D draw

I’ll let know my results :)
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 10 Mar 2019, 23:16 
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I hope it goes well, because a replacement actual metal part that is correct would be great.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 02:47 
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As far as a I know laser cutting is a 2D process...before it was called laser cutting it was just called “cutting” and that would be part of any fabricated metal version. Fabrication from compostes might make more sense though since the extra weight of brass or copper might somehow affect performance or durability.

What maybe would be good is to 3D print the main frame of it and then use real pins for the gears made from whatever, probably steel since you can coat that easily with something stable. The pins being printed is very much the weak part of this idea.

Btw, if anyone has one of these broken or not I’d love to have it to try some stuff out. I lost the last one I broke.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 06:16 
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This might be slightly off topic but it's something I've wondered about since this VNL1700 issue has been talked about.

Does anyone know what contributes to the part breaking in general. Is it due to wear & tear or does a gear jam break the part?


Last edited by ldfan on 26 Mar 2019, 08:48, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2019, 09:46 
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signofzeta wrote:
As far as a I know laser cutting is a 2D process...before it was called laser cutting it was just called “cutting” and that would be part of any fabricated metal version. Fabrication from compostes might make more sense though since the extra weight of brass or copper might somehow affect performance or durability.

What maybe would be good is to 3D print the main frame of it and then use real pins for the gears made from whatever, probably steel since you can coat that easily with something stable. The pins being printed is very much the weak part of this idea.

Btw, if anyone has one of these broken or not I’d love to have it to try some stuff out. I lost the last one I broke.


You're right, I verified, the metal process proposed by my proto lab is called "laster melting", here is the description:
Laser melting is an additive manufacturing method developed specifically for 3D printing of metals and alloys. It uses a laser to fuse successive layers of metal powder.
I asked for a quotation, it's near 50€ for the item in metal... And to remember again, there is a VNL1700 for 59€ on eBay... :sick:
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 05:32 
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Done right that technique would be much stronger than a VNL1779, much less a 1700.

(and the 504/59 uses the VNL1637, which is worse than the 1700. It's not as unshippable as a CLD-M player, but probably not much better.)
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 17:46 
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miskia wrote:
I asked for a quotation, it's near 50€ for the item in metal... And to remember again, there is a VNL1700 for 59€ on eBay... :sick:

I wonder how much the tooling would cost tho. You'd first have to create a template using an original part.

I was wondering if you could simply cast it the old fashioned way, but it looks like it'd need a lot of additional work because I doubt you could press one of these inside a mold.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 22:29 
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The sintered metal process he’s talking about is very impressive if you want to make a roll bar for an F1 car but the weakness of any 3D print is in the rough finish and the grain being all over the place. The grain wouldn’t be an issue with the metal part since it’s stupid strong for something like this but the hand finishing could be even worse than the plastic part. I know some places do this with titanium now but you really wouldn’t want anything harder than aluminum because you’ll be sanding for days.

I’m honestly surprised at €50. That’s not bad at all but I wonder how much more work would be needed to actually fit the thing.

Regardless of the methods, if it was made minus the pins that would probably work best. The pins can be made from something already the exact diameter and with any finish you’d need. Nylon or delrin or some metal. Then drill holes and glue them into place. What actually breaks on these is the pins from their attaching point. The forces seen on this part are puny so anything stronger than original will do ESPECIALLY if you never let the player sit for years on end or ship it. Those two things are the 1-2 punch for M Holders. :)

If you beef up the M Holder too much you may end up finding what the next weakest part is, and it’s probably the track so keep in mind that sometimes controlling where the weak point is located is sometimes to your advantage.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 12 Mar 2019, 22:31 
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takeshi666 wrote:
miskia wrote:
I asked for a quotation, it's near 50€ for the item in metal... And to remember again, there is a VNL1700 for 59€ on eBay... :sick:

I wonder how much the tooling would cost tho. You'd first have to create a template using an original part.

I was wondering if you could simply cast it the old fashioned way, but it looks like it'd need a lot of additional work because I doubt you could press one of these inside a mold.


The original would have been injection molded. In the US that’s a $20,000 piece of tooling but once complete could produce M Holders for $0.05 each.

For sintered metal bath rapid prototyping machines there is no tooling. In operation it looks like 3D printing underwater. Sort of like...the intro to Ghost in the Shell.
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 Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700
PostPosted: 13 Mar 2019, 16:42 
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I was thinking more in terms of reverse engineering a new mold from an existing part. I just wonder where the mold would actually split so the cast can be removed, and how much additional work it'd still require, like drilling the necessary holes in it.
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