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miskia
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Post subject: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 09 Mar 2019, 14:31 |
Genuinely interested |
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Joined: 29 Dec 2018, 10:33 Posts: 35 Location: Belgium Has thanked: 1 time Been thanked: 10 times
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Hello, As read in lot of topics here and outhere, the motor holder is a real problem... I personally need 3 stucks for players that are damaged. The object is not available anymore, and I think its seriously over priced on eBay from seller that know the problem (60€ for one ?! omg...) I took the decision to reproduce it, but in the "proper" way. So after some hours of work I was able to draw the VNL1779 / VNL1700 in 3D. The goal to achieve is to reproduce it. As I suspected, a FDM printer is not able to print something "proper" and usable in our players, no enough details and too much things to clean. But It was interesting for "fine tuning" the sizes of the object. I don't have a SLA printer, so I sent the model to a prototype lab in my town to print it for me, I'll give a feedback when the object will be ready Here is some pictures of the beast in 3D. Miskia
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 09 Mar 2019, 16:21 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 5986 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1292 times Been thanked: 1105 times
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I haven’t needed one of these since before Pioneer shut down parts distribution. When I eventually do again my plan was to hand fabricate from brass plate, rods, and solder. While I welcome a suitable replacement from any source and 3D printing tech is improving all the time this is a very challenging piece. It needs to be strong and even the injection molded piece wasn’t tough enough so I don’t have a lot of faith in new methods. The tech needed to make this is very low by comparison. Just weld it out of brass. It’ll take less time to teach yourself that then it will to make dozens of failed plastic ones just trying to get the thing to fit in the player and a brass one will last forever. Not that I’ve actually done it yet.
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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rein-o
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 09 Mar 2019, 16:56 |
Jedi Master |
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Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05 Posts: 8106 Location: Dullaware Has thanked: 1219 times Been thanked: 844 times
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Solder rather than weld, also copper could work as well. All a matter of what is easier to obtain and your metal skills. You could also go to a jeweler or foundry and get them to make wax/metal pieces cast out of whatever you want. Hell you could even have it made out of solid gold
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 09 Mar 2019, 19:47 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 5986 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1292 times Been thanked: 1105 times
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Weld, solder, braze, it’s all the same crap. That’s not a bad idea actually. Those jewelry carnies at the local art crawl could probably make one. Many of the dimensions aren’t critical or are optional. The gear pins need to be perfect and whatever clips or screws to anything but that’s about it.
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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ldfan
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 10 Mar 2019, 18:46 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014, 05:59 Posts: 1456 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Has thanked: 425 times Been thanked: 533 times
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pbiancardi wrote: Wouldn't it be cheaper / easier just to buy a player that doesn't have this issue? Probably would be cheaper but most players that did not have this part are of the older generation and some people may not like these players (e.g.: many of them did not have AC3-RF outputs) and they may even be harder to find now since they are older. Not the mention, the older the player means they may be more worn so they still need to be adjusted or fixed as well. Also, I can attest that some people get attached to their players and would prefer to try and keep what they have going. I do own a Pioneer CLD-59 that luckily for me currently works fine but it does have the more fragile VNL1637 (so I do have some concern for the future). Regardless, it's a good looking and good performing machine that I would hate to lose even though I have many other machines that are better (and even worse) than it.
Last edited by ldfan on 26 Mar 2019, 08:46, edited 2 times in total.
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cplusplus
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 10 Mar 2019, 21:31 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 13 Aug 2018, 03:18 Posts: 1520 Has thanked: 448 times Been thanked: 587 times
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pbiancardi wrote: Wouldn't it be cheaper / easier just to buy a player that doesn't have this issue? It would certainly be easier, but I hate to think about players being tossed just due to a broken plastic part.
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ldfan
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 10 Mar 2019, 22:00 |
Hardcore fan |
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Joined: 28 Jun 2014, 05:59 Posts: 1456 Location: San Francisco, CA USA Has thanked: 425 times Been thanked: 533 times
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cplusplus wrote: It would certainly be easier, but I hate to think about players being tossed just due to a broken plastic part. I totally agree with that accessment. If one breaks down, the value of all the parts in one machine are literally priceless. Thus, throwing it out because of one plastic part that is preventing the operation of the player is ridiculous. I definitely would try my best to see about repairing or replacing the part at all cost.
Last edited by ldfan on 15 Feb 2020, 07:11, edited 2 times in total.
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miskia
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 10 Mar 2019, 22:41 |
Genuinely interested |
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Joined: 29 Dec 2018, 10:33 Posts: 35 Location: Belgium Has thanked: 1 time Been thanked: 10 times
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For the moment it took just some hours of my free time.. not easy to find but i’m not in a hurry The FDM tests cost me nothing (printer of a friend). The first SLA protype cost me 11€... I expect it in few days. It’s a « multijet fusion » printing, I invite you to watch some videos about this technic The advantage is that when the object will be good (and I hope that the first prototype in SLA will be ) I’ll be able to print the part as many times as I want... Note that my proto lab has also the possibility to « laser cut » the object in metal and it’s not very expensive compared to the original part sold by few guys on eBay... It’s a possibility when I’ll be 100% sure of my 3D draw I’ll let know my results
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miskia
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 11 Mar 2019, 09:46 |
Genuinely interested |
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Joined: 29 Dec 2018, 10:33 Posts: 35 Location: Belgium Has thanked: 1 time Been thanked: 10 times
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signofzeta wrote: As far as a I know laser cutting is a 2D process...before it was called laser cutting it was just called “cutting” and that would be part of any fabricated metal version. Fabrication from compostes might make more sense though since the extra weight of brass or copper might somehow affect performance or durability.
What maybe would be good is to 3D print the main frame of it and then use real pins for the gears made from whatever, probably steel since you can coat that easily with something stable. The pins being printed is very much the weak part of this idea.
Btw, if anyone has one of these broken or not I’d love to have it to try some stuff out. I lost the last one I broke. You're right, I verified, the metal process proposed by my proto lab is called "laster melting", here is the description: Laser melting is an additive manufacturing method developed specifically for 3D printing of metals and alloys. It uses a laser to fuse successive layers of metal powder. I asked for a quotation, it's near 50€ for the item in metal... And to remember again, there is a VNL1700 for 59€ on eBay...
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takeshi666
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 12 Mar 2019, 17:46 |
Absolute fan |
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Joined: 01 Feb 2018, 02:41 Posts: 1992 Location: Finland Has thanked: 183 times Been thanked: 386 times
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miskia wrote: I asked for a quotation, it's near 50€ for the item in metal... And to remember again, there is a VNL1700 for 59€ on eBay... I wonder how much the tooling would cost tho. You'd first have to create a template using an original part. I was wondering if you could simply cast it the old fashioned way, but it looks like it'd need a lot of additional work because I doubt you could press one of these inside a mold.
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 12 Mar 2019, 22:29 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 5986 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1292 times Been thanked: 1105 times
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The sintered metal process he’s talking about is very impressive if you want to make a roll bar for an F1 car but the weakness of any 3D print is in the rough finish and the grain being all over the place. The grain wouldn’t be an issue with the metal part since it’s stupid strong for something like this but the hand finishing could be even worse than the plastic part. I know some places do this with titanium now but you really wouldn’t want anything harder than aluminum because you’ll be sanding for days. I’m honestly surprised at €50. That’s not bad at all but I wonder how much more work would be needed to actually fit the thing. Regardless of the methods, if it was made minus the pins that would probably work best. The pins can be made from something already the exact diameter and with any finish you’d need. Nylon or delrin or some metal. Then drill holes and glue them into place. What actually breaks on these is the pins from their attaching point. The forces seen on this part are puny so anything stronger than original will do ESPECIALLY if you never let the player sit for years on end or ship it. Those two things are the 1-2 punch for M Holders. If you beef up the M Holder too much you may end up finding what the next weakest part is, and it’s probably the track so keep in mind that sometimes controlling where the weak point is located is sometimes to your advantage.
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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signofzeta
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Post subject: Re: Let's resurrect the VNL1779 / VNL1700 Posted: 12 Mar 2019, 22:31 |
Jedi Knight |
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Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44 Posts: 5986 Location: Ann Arbor Has thanked: 1292 times Been thanked: 1105 times
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takeshi666 wrote: miskia wrote: I asked for a quotation, it's near 50€ for the item in metal... And to remember again, there is a VNL1700 for 59€ on eBay... I wonder how much the tooling would cost tho. You'd first have to create a template using an original part. I was wondering if you could simply cast it the old fashioned way, but it looks like it'd need a lot of additional work because I doubt you could press one of these inside a mold. The original would have been injection molded. In the US that’s a $20,000 piece of tooling but once complete could produce M Holders for $0.05 each. For sintered metal bath rapid prototyping machines there is no tooling. In operation it looks like 3D printing underwater. Sort of like...the intro to Ghost in the Shell.
_________________ All about LD care, inner sleeves, shrink wrap, etc.
https://youtu.be/b3O-vHpHRpM
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