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 Post subject: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 18:46 
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In my searching about for good thing in the Laserdisc market I came upon this combination of items on ebay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/304191203579
https://www.ebay.com/itm/385498908739

They are both titled "Father Christmas" and the covers are clearly NOT the same even though the readable reference ID's are the same. The provided pictures of the items for sale were good enough that they could both be clearly read. ASLA-1027

The database only has entry for one such disc.

Father Christmas (1991) [ASLA-1027]

So speaking as a collector, have we got a need for a new entry in the database or should I regard both of these as the same thing?...but they aren't if you care about the covers.
I believe something similar may have happened with the related video "The Snowman".
Thoughts anyone?


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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 21:43 
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That's not so uncommon.

Werner - Beinhart! (1990) [51397]

The first comment says, there is a second cover version. That's correct, I do have both. And this is not the only one.
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 22:08 
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drecksoft wrote:
That's not so uncommon.

Werner - Beinhart! (1990) [51397]

The first comment says, there is a second cover version. That's correct, I do have both. And this is not the only one.


First, thanx for your response. :-)

So how do people deal with the matter? Doesn't that mean that there are lots of discs out there that the database doesn't/can't acknowledge? Am I just wrong? Is there a system for dealing with that? Sometimes my "completeness monster" shows itself and news like this disturbs it to the core since that means no-one actually knows if they've got a complete set of anything. If I may ask, how do you cope with the matter? Hopefully it's just no biggie for you but I thought I'd ask. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 25 Mar 2023, 22:58 
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Looks like someone needs to add this and explain that there is a different cover in the comments unless you can get a good image of that other cover
and send it to the admin.

I can't remember now but there are other discs and they have multiple posts on the database.
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 00:24 
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Criterion's releases of Taxi Driver are another example of this: there are two versions of CC1219L, and three versions of CC1218L.

(And there are probably plenty of examples where two publishers happened to choose the same numbering scheme, e.g. 10004 and 10004.)
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 00:53 
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Oh yeah, I remember seeing Taxi Driver at Tower Video back in the day, the red with black border was the first issue, uncertain on which was second now.
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 01:15 
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There are plenty examples of the same disc w/ a different cover and retaining the same catalog number. Here are two more examples and they are documented twice on the database....

Into the Woods:

Into the Woods (1991) [ID8285MB]
Into the Woods (1991) [ID8285MB]


Robocop:

Robocop (1987) [ID5168]
Robocop (1987) [ID5168]


You can hit the "update" button on the existing disc and provide details of a different cover and also upload the image of the cover as well. Julien will know what to do with it.
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 05:37 
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Happened a LOT.

Usually cover design needed to be updated for additional UPC, change of publishing rights (companies merging, contracts expiring), change of style (VHS-size vs. full covers, different artists), price update, Digital Audio remaster, inclusion in a new series, etc.

Cover update: Above the Law (1988) [1178613] vs Above the Law (1988) [1178613]
Image Image

Gene Shalit's Critics Choice (double combo! VHS to full + change of collection):
Double Indemnity (1944) [21004]
Invisible Man, The (1933) [23007]
Touch of Evil (1958) (Uncut) [21010]
ImageImageImage

Encore Edition:
Double Indemnity (1944) [21004]
Invisible Man, The (1933) [23007]
Touch of Evil (1958) (Uncut) [21010]
ImageImageImage

Sometimes they would update the catalog number, sometimes not.

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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 07:48 
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So the knowledge I should take from this conversation is that a multitude of laserdiscs are out there with different cover art but that if they have the same reference ID I can be confident that at least the disc has the same content, at least if the title is the same? Also that lddb.com CAN accomodate multiple instances of the same reference ID's becuase the database uses a different unique identifier for each recognized disc type.

https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/24353/11 ... ve-the-Law
https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/59003/11 ... ve-the-Law

In this case the identifiers seem to be 24353 and 59003 whch I guess are incremental numbers handed out as people discover new discs. :-)

I suppose since neither of the two "Father Christmas" discs are in my hands I should not attempt to generate a new item until I do so. Also, I should be encouraged to do so for any discs that I do have that may not be represented as shown in the database even if it is only a cover difference.

Please correct me if these are NOT the set of ideas I should finish with. :-)

Thank you, everyone for clearing this up for me. :-)
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 12:14 
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rein-o wrote:
Looks like someone needs to add this and explain that there is a different cover in the comments unless you can get a good image of that other cover
and send it to the admin.

I guess that would probably have to be me since I've got that green variant cover.
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 12:47 
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Sometimes the same release got 2 covers, to address 2 different markets.

Ex: Outrageous Fortune (1987) [569 AS 1] and Outrageous Fortune (1987) [569 AS 2]

West of Mississippi river
Image

East of Mississippi river
Image

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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 14:33 
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foxpup wrote:
So the knowledge I should take from this conversation is that a multitude of laserdiscs are out there with different cover art but that if they have the same reference ID I can be confident that at least the disc has the same content, at least if the title is the same? Also that lddb.com CAN accomodate multiple instances of the same reference ID's becuase the database uses a different unique identifier for each recognized disc type.

https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/24353/11 ... ve-the-Law
https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/59003/11 ... ve-the-Law

In this case the identifiers seem to be 24353 and 59003 whch I guess are incremental numbers handed out as people discover new discs. :-)

I suppose since neither of the two "Father Christmas" discs are in my hands I should not attempt to generate a new item until I do so. Also, I should be encouraged to do so for any discs that I do have that may not be represented as shown in the database even if it is only a cover difference.

Please correct me if these are NOT the set of ideas I should finish with. :-)

Thank you, everyone for clearing this up for me. :-)


What you should be taking away from this is that you care way too much about completeness and correctness. The people who MADE THIS STUFF didn’t even care as much as you do. This ain’t like Star Wars toys or Yugioh cards where every single thing came from the same company at the same time and is all fully accounted for with ease. “Collect them all.” is a thing that can be done if you’re rich enough and if it’s designed to be done by the people who made it all. Tens of thousands of LDs came from hundreds of plants and publishers in a dozen countries over a period of decades. You cannot…”know it”, ever. Not even with LDDB.

Covers change while catalog items retain the same number…not just LDs. Books, records, tapes, model kits, toothpaste, pretty much everything that stays in manufacture long enough. You change the number when it matters and is helpful, not to soothe mental illness. The idea of a “complete collection” in LD is…much newer than LD…a childish idea, wildly impractical to attempt and totally impossible to achieve. You’re going to have to punch out once in a while and relax.

BTW, I have the Father Xmas with the obi. Let me know if you have any questions about it.

There at least two actually different LDs of The Snowman. One has the Bowie intro and one doesn’t. There may be more but those also may just be reprints of the same thing.
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 16:24 
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takeshi666 wrote:
rein-o wrote:
Looks like someone needs to add this and explain that there is a different cover in the comments unless you can get a good image of that other cover
and send it to the admin.

I guess that would probably have to be me since I've got that green variant cover.


I really meant for the OP to do it so they can help by adding the title.
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 26 Mar 2023, 22:08 
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signofzeta wrote:
foxpup wrote:
So the knowledge I should take from this conversation is that a multitude of laserdiscs are out there with different cover art but that if they have the same reference ID I can be confident that at least the disc has the same content, at least if the title is the same? Also that lddb.com CAN accomodate multiple instances of the same reference ID's becuase the database uses a different unique identifier for each recognized disc type.

https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/24353/11 ... ve-the-Law
https://www.lddb.com/laserdisc/59003/11 ... ve-the-Law

In this case the identifiers seem to be 24353 and 59003 whch I guess are incremental numbers handed out as people discover new discs. :-)

I suppose since neither of the two "Father Christmas" discs are in my hands I should not attempt to generate a new item until I do so. Also, I should be encouraged to do so for any discs that I do have that may not be represented as shown in the database even if it is only a cover difference.

Please correct me if these are NOT the set of ideas I should finish with. :-)

Thank you, everyone for clearing this up for me. :-)


What you should be taking away from this is that you care way too much about completeness and correctness. The people who MADE THIS STUFF didn’t even care as much as you do. This ain’t like Star Wars toys or Yugioh cards where every single thing came from the same company at the same time and is all fully accounted for with ease. “Collect them all.” is a thing that can be done if you’re rich enough and if it’s designed to be done by the people who made it all. Tens of thousands of LDs came from hundreds of plants and publishers in a dozen countries over a period of decades. You cannot…”know it”, ever. Not even with LDDB.

Covers change while catalog items retain the same number…not just LDs. Books, records, tapes, model kits, toothpaste, pretty much everything that stays in manufacture long enough. You change the number when it matters and is helpful, not to soothe mental illness. The idea of a “complete collection” in LD is…much newer than LD…a childish idea, wildly impractical to attempt and totally impossible to achieve. You’re going to have to punch out once in a while and relax.

BTW, I have the Father Xmas with the obi. Let me know if you have any questions about it.

There at least two actually different LDs of The Snowman. One has the Bowie intro and one doesn’t. There may be more but those also may just be reprints of the same thing.


I really like this practical perspective. Besides, if complete-ism gets the better part of me it ruins the fun and enjoying ourselves is what collecting laserdiscs is all about, right? :-) I'll just have to beat down that OCD demon from time to time so I can continue enjoying things. :-)
"Just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show, I should really just relax For Mystery Science Theater 3000!" " ;-)
Thanx and LLAP
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 19:27 
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Another reason to update the cover: UNIVERSAL changing it's logo after 1990.

Most SF0xx-nnnn tiles in the Hitchcock Library got a PILF re-release. Somehow this one kept the same catalog number.

Rear Window (1954) [SF047-1589]
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Rear Window (1954) [SF047-1589]
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 20:59 
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There are even worse things: Same cover, same catalog number but one version in full screen, one in widescreen. So different content here. The ONLY difference is a sticker on the later one.
Lethal Weapon (1987) [11709 LD]

Or here where there are two covers but to know if you have the "fixed" version of the disc, you have to look at the mint marks.
Eagles: Hell Freezes Over (1994) [ID4065GF]
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 27 Mar 2023, 21:58 
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drecksoft wrote:
There are even worse things: Same cover, same catalog number but one version in full screen, one in widescreen. So different content here. The ONLY difference is a sticker on the later one.
Lethal Weapon (1987) [11709 LD]

Or here where there are two covers but to know if you have the "fixed" version of the disc, you have to look at the mint marks.
Eagles: Hell Freezes Over (1994) [ID4065GF]


Same story with Three Caballeros, The/Saludos Amigos (1944) (Uncut) [5716 CS].

Most of what I've seen on eBay are the botched audio pressings of side 5. (Well, not exactly botched...just misplaced)
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 28 Mar 2023, 13:19 
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Or PAL and NTSC versions with the same catalogue number: Glenn Gould: Greatest Hits [SLV48433] and Glenn Gould: Greatest Hits [SLV48433] (the PAL disc has a sticker on the sleeve).
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2023, 18:34 
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admin wrote:
Sometimes the same release got 2 covers, to address 2 different markets.

Ex: Outrageous Fortune (1987) [569 AS 1] and Outrageous Fortune (1987) [569 AS 2]

West of Mississippi river
Image

East of Mississippi river
Image

Julien


This was just more than the cover. The discs are actually different, highlighting which actress had top billing.
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 Post subject: Re: Two DIFFERENT laserdiscs with the SAME reference ID
PostPosted: 02 Apr 2023, 18:42 
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admin wrote:
Happened a LOT.

Usually cover design needed to be updated for additional UPC, change of publishing rights (companies merging, contracts expiring), change of style (VHS-size vs. full covers, different artists), price update, Digital Audio remaster, inclusion in a new series, etc.

Cover update: Above the Law (1988) [1178613] vs Above the Law (1988) [1178613]
Image Image

Gene Shalit's Critics Choice (double combo! VHS to full + change of collection):
Double Indemnity (1944) [21004]
Invisible Man, The (1933) [23007]
Touch of Evil (1958) (Uncut) [21010]
ImageImageImage

Encore Edition:
Double Indemnity (1944) [21004]
Invisible Man, The (1933) [23007]
Touch of Evil (1958) (Uncut) [21010]
ImageImageImage

Sometimes they would update the catalog number, sometimes not.

Julien


Universal reused catalog numbers - notice these are still using the "Discovision" style numbers. When Universal started issuing ISBN numbers, they were forced to switch to the 4xxxx series. For the "Gene Shalit" titles, when the contract ended, all the titles were reissued, same catalog number and discs, with updated Jackets.

Image Entertainment constantly changed jackets for repressings. VHS style artwork in the middle of the jacket, then moved to the left edge, then replaced with full jacket art. Sometimes with the banner across the top edge and sometimes not.

Of course, then there are the repressings Image did where they changed the masters, but not the jackets (Sound of Music, Star Wars Technidisc repressings).
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