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 Post subject: Is a MUSE player better???
PostPosted: 31 May 2012, 23:00 
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there are possibly 3 muse titles that i would pay 50 bucks for...so im not too interested in the format...but are the machines superior in playing regular LDs????

ok the X0 has the red laser..... but the other MUSE machines... do they have any advantages?

(my player is a LD-S9)
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 Post subject: Re: Is a MUSE player better???
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2012, 13:17 
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Pioneer definitely went one step further with the muse players,in that they were more smoothly refined in operation and a good deal quieter when going from side A to side B, as you can hardly hear the mechanism inside. . . . . .Real class indeed.

The picture for me personally is markedly better, and the laser is able to read through a level of laserot.

They were way ahead of there time and truly built to last.

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 Post subject: Re: Is a MUSE player better???
PostPosted: 04 Jun 2012, 15:13 
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The picture from a MUSE LaserDisc player, especially the HLD-X0, is truly breathtaking and an order of magnitude better than the best of the non-MUSE players. This applies only to the Pioneer players - I haven't heard many positive things about the Panasonic and Sony MUSE LD players.

It's a shame Pioneer didn't use the red DVD laser in the DVL series of players for LaserDisc playback. A red laser, as used in the MUSE and top-loading units, picks up less disc noise that's created due to flaws in the stamper, aluminum coating, etc... It's also more immune to bifringence and other disc flaws. All of that adds up to a cleaner, quieter signal that needs less noise reduction and processing.

One interesrting thing about the Pioneer HLD-X0 - it was used by Chineese DVD bootleggers to make discs of The Pet Shop Boys, Olivia In Concert, The Phantom Menace and other bootleg DVD's. They are all encoded at a high bitrate of 8mbps or so with both DTS and AC-3 sound and are good clean pressed discs, not DVD-R's. The picture and sound are outstanding and the bootleggers who made them even brag in the packaging about the MUSE LaserDisc player used.
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 Post subject: Re: Is a MUSE player better???
PostPosted: 26 Jun 2012, 02:13 
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The Sony HIL-C2EX seems to be head & shoulders above Sony NTSC players. That's probably not an enthusiastic recommendation, but it does what I want, which is play MUSE discs. I will say that I don't think much of certain parts of its mechanical design. Unfortunately, my attempts to get my hands on a Pioneer HLD-1000 were not rewarded with success.
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 Post subject: Re: Is a MUSE player better???
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2012, 14:55 
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disclord wrote:
It's a shame Pioneer didn't use the red DVD laser in the DVL series of players for LaserDisc playback. A red laser, as used in the MUSE and top-loading units, picks up less disc noise that's created due to flaws in the stamper, aluminum coating, etc... It's also more immune to bifringence and other disc flaws. All of that adds up to a cleaner, quieter signal that needs less noise reduction and processing.

I suspect the answer to this is no but would it be possible to mod the players to use a red laser?
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 Post subject: Re: Is a MUSE player better???
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2012, 19:26 
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publius wrote:
The Sony HIL-C2EX seems to be head & shoulders above Sony NTSC players. That's probably not an enthusiastic recommendation, but it does what I want, which is play MUSE discs. I will say that I don't think much of certain parts of its mechanical design. Unfortunately, my attempts to get my hands on a Pioneer HLD-1000 were not rewarded with success.


What's the problem with its mechanical design? Isn't that the same player that Panasonic also sold? What is its picture quality like on standard LaserDisc playback when compared to the LD-V8000 and others?

I once had one of Sony's late model consumer LaserDisc players - one of the dual side ones that had the "Tri-Digital" circuits and digital FX on CLV titles. Besides its grainy picture I realized that its S-Video processing of the signal at both the S and Composite outputs was reducing the chroma resolution to about 80 lines or so. It had noticeably worse chroma resolution than my LD-1100, VP-1000 and PR-8210, and my DVL-700 blew it away. On the Absolutely Fabulous box set, the chroma would bleed outside the luminance during the opening credits and any bright, solid color would flicker and be filled with other colors. It was ghastly. I ended up giving it to a coworker who wanted to get into LD and would be using it with a 19 inch television via the channel 3 RF input. He didn't have much money but wanted to start collecting LaserDisc's to put together a library of his favorite films, most of which could be had on LaserDisc for a few dollars at the local used shops. I figured the Sony was better than nothing and he loved it since his TV hid a lot of its problems.

I never understood why Sony's players were so bad. They had made players since basically the launch of the format, yet even their first American industrial model had a terrible picture. The only "good" Sony's I've seen we're the two that were clones of the Pioneer LD-700 and the CLD-900. Sony actually made those players even though they were exact duplicates of Pioneer's - since they were in Sony's industrial Lasermax lineup they had better parts and build quality than Pioneer's consumer versions. I have the Sony Lasermax LDP-180, which is the Pioneer LD-700 clone, and it's a beautiful machine with outstanding picture quality. It starts up faster and searches frames and chapters faster than the Pioneer consumer version too - a search that takes 11 seconds on the Pioneer takes only 6 on the Sony. It's remote is cool, with headphone outputs and volume control built into it. I wish I could find the Pioneer computer interface box that would allow the Sony to be controlled by my Apple II.
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 Post subject: Re: Is a MUSE player better???
PostPosted: 28 Jun 2012, 20:34 
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disclord wrote:
What's the problem with its mechanical design? Isn't that the same player that Panasonic also sold? What is its picture quality like on standard LaserDisc playback when compared to the LD-V8000 and others?
I had two issues with the mechanical design. The first is that, unlike in Pioneer players where the disc clamp is magnetic, the Sony disc clamp depends on a central bit which is pushed upward with a spring. This spring is retained by a flimsy plastic part. That part broke on my machine, apparently in transit, making it impossible to load or unload a disc, because the central bit had actually popped out & was floating around the inside of the player. I'm lucky it didn't damage the electronics while it was there.

The second issue came about while I was trying to repair the first. The disc tray loading is controlled by some complex cam-gears, rather than by (say) limit switches. As a result, if you're not very careful about how you remove & re-insert it, you can get the thing misaligned, & it will draw the tray in partway & then try to lower it, or else draw it in all the way, then try to draw it in some more, get stuck, & spit it out or just hold it there without ever lowering it. The service manual has a procedure for removing & replacing the tray without this problem, but it requires moving around some parts which are difficult to get at without first removing the tray.

Panasonic sold the HIL-C2EX as the LX-HD20, & there is actually a "SONY/PANASONIC" switch on the system board, to set it to behave as one or the other. I guess this would be useful if you had a Panasonic LD remote, & no Sony remote. On the other hand, if you have two machines, you can set one to "LD1" & the other to "LD2" with a rear-panel switch, & by setting the corresponding switch on the remote control, you can operate whichever one you please, which is a nice trick! The previous model, HIL-C1 (which is basically the same as the industrial HIL-1000) was sold as the Panasonic LX-HD10.

Mine really needs the servos adjusted (they probably got knocked out of proper alignment during shipment), which is a problem because the service manual calls for the use of a special jig, which connects via a ribbon cable to a socket on the system board, & good luck finding one of those. It also calls for the use of a certain 20 cm MUSE test disc, ditto. (This test disc appears to be CAV one side, CLV the other, with EFM audio. It has to be 20 cm size because part of the tilt system is adjusted by sticking a screwdriver through a hole in the disc tray, which is within the 30 cm divot, while a disc is playing.) From what I can tell (it is in Japanese, & I'm not as fluent as I could be), the MUSE adjustments are primary, & then secondary adjustments are made for NTSC.

Anyway, it almost certainly doesn't track as well as it could, so I can't speak to the video performance quite as much as I might like to. I will, however, say that it looks pretty good, at least through the BNC video output, which is what I've been using. I haven't actually done A/B test with my other players — one of these days, maybe. The full-frame digital effects are nice, too.
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 Post subject: Re: Is a MUSE player better???
PostPosted: 28 Oct 2018, 21:26 
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publius wrote:
Panasonic sold the HIL-C2EX as the LX-HD20, & there is actually a "SONY/PANASONIC" switch on the system board, to set it to behave as one or the other. I guess this would be useful if you had a Panasonic LD remote, & no Sony remote. On the other hand, if you have two machines, you can set one to "LD1" & the other to "LD2" with a rear-panel switch, & by setting the corresponding switch on the remote control, you can operate whichever one you please, which is a nice trick! The previous model, HIL-C1 (which is basically the same as the industrial HIL-1000) was sold as the Panasonic LX-HD10.


Can you tell me where this switch is? I only found a switch for "NORMAL/PANASONIC" which does not have any influence on the remote. I can't get the PANASONIC into TEST mode with the Sony "Key-Trick". See: https://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7398
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