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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2011, 22:35 
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Let's be clear on the basic math here.

If you letterbox a 16:9 image into a 4:3 video frame, which is the conventional way to do it, you are only using 360 of the 480 visible scan lines of NTSC. If you zoom in on that letterboxed image, to fill the screen of a display with a 16:9 native ratio, you still only have 360 "real" lines of resolution, even if the display has 480, 720, 1080, or some other number of scan lines. If, on the other hand, you "squeeze" the 16:9 image, that is, use all 480 lines, then you obviously have more vertical resolution available.

As far as horizontal resolution is concerned, the nominal bandwidth of broadcast NTSC is 4.25 MHz, which corresponds to about 425 resolvable elements across the width of the screen. In 4:3 aspect ratio, this means about 320 elements per picture height ; in 16:9 aspect ratio, it gives only about 240 resolvable elements per picture height. (Reducing the horizontal resolution compared to the vertical resolution is justified, in line-scanned & especially interlaced displays, by something called the "Kell Factor" which relates to the fact that the image is continuous in one direction & discontinuous in the other.) Now, some LDs have a wider video bandwidth, but typically most of the other equipment in the production chain was designed to work within the 4.25 MHz envelope, so the degree of improvement there is limited, & the 2/R analog audio carrier had a nasty tendency to interfere with the video. I believe the HLD-X0 demo disc is an example of a wide-band LD with only digital audio.

The fact to observe, however, is that whether you are zooming a letterboxed image or displaying a squeeze image at its proper ratio, either way you have the same ~240 elements per picture height to play with. Hence the squeeze image has, as we would have expected, a higher total resolution. This is the exact same math which applies to DVDs, although the DVD has an allowable video bandwidth of about 5 MHz, making for about 500 elements across the width of the screen, or 280 per screen height in widescreen mode.

Now, given a fixed resolution, does a larger image or a smaller one look sharper? The smaller one, of course. But, on the other hand, due to the phenomenon of finite visual acuity, that perceived sharpness is bought at the expense of being able to resolve visible detail.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2011, 15:28 
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I have the following Squeezed titles,
1) Terminator 2.
2) Cliff Hanger.
3) Stargate.
4) Cuthroat Island (reserved at present.)
5) Another title reserved but cannot remember.

It's a pitty they didn't produce many more titles this way.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 15 Nov 2011, 22:12 
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I am not the only individual to recognize that zooming a letterbox laserdisc distorts the picture. Others have expressed this. Digital sets are tuned for digitally encoded signals -period. There is no getting around that. A quality scaler may improve the image when zoomed but not everyone is up for that. Yes, squeeze discs have a 33% vertical resolution but for a digital display some distortion takes place. The built in scaling ability of the display also plays a role I have to admit.

Now to some other questions and points that have previously been brought up. Take a look at Aliens (laserdisc) 1998 release. The disc says 1: 85 aspect ratio. When you play it does it fill the screen? No. My original point was that I prefer letterbox on laserdisc. Some monitors will look better than others but overall zooming is not natural. Back to squeeze discs- they were produced to satisfy the eyes of those who could never get used to (or understand) letterbox on laserdisc. As widescreen tvs took off it was believed that (if laserdisc survived) filling the screen was much more visually palpable to the consumer.

We hopefully are all just relating ideas and thoughts to one another as those interested in the greatest format ever. I think squeeze discs are a cool concept and I like the packaging but it's just not for me based on what I've seen on different tvs sets. Squeeze discs on a CRT display do look better though. There are a few important issues to consider with these discs.

Experimentation with edge enhancement was in full force with squeeze discs. Probably because the studios gave the makers masters that were not to good. The second release of T2 was the best looking squeeze transfer ever (tHX to boot). Squeeze discs were cool but not perfected. It was an experiment in anamorphism. All the US squeeze discs and many of the Japanese ones had sharpening applied. Some would also show up with video noise in weird places. Cuthroat Island was a disaster (again compensating for a crappy master) So I'm anti-zoom and just not big on squeeze discs. But hey-it's all good!
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 01:22 
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remington wrote:
Now to some other questions and points that have previously been brought up. Take a look at Aliens (laserdisc) 1998 release. The disc says 1: 85 aspect ratio. When you play it does it fill the screen? No. My original point was that I prefer letterbox on laserdisc. Some monitors will look better than others but overall zooming is not natural. Back to squeeze discs- they were produced to satisfy the eyes of those who could never get used to (or understand) letterbox on laserdisc. As widescreen tvs took off it was believed that (if laserdisc survived) filling the screen was much more visually palpable to the consumer.


See I agree with just about everything said in this thread, some great informative posts. The one thing I can't get over is the above. Unfortunately I no longer own Aliens but if it's 1.85:1 (and ignoring the difference between 1.78:1 and 1.85:1) then yes, it should fill a 16:9 display. If you have black bars while watching Aliens then they will be on all 4 sides (horizontal and vertical). I do happen to own Predator which you referenced in a previous post. I took some quick cell phone pics at 30:12 into the movie to demonstrate what I'm talking about.

In the first picture there are black bars, but on all 4 sides like there should be. In the 2nd picture I've zoomed (called "expand" on my TV) the image to fill my screen without distorting or leaving out any picture. Same image, just larger.

EDIT: There does actually appear to be minor picture loss on the top and bottom but I believe that's due to the 1.85:1 image filling the 1.78:1 screen.

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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 03:10 
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The purpose of the "squeeze LD" has nothing to do with filling the screen, as such. It is to make efficient use of the limited available video bandwidth by using as many of the available picture elements (lines times elements per line) to store the actual picture as possible. It is intended to provide a better match to the geometry of widescreen displays, of course, just as is "anamorphic enhancement" on DVD, which is exactly the same process ; but a DVD doesn't waste any bits storing black bars.

If you want to watch a small image, with bars on all sides, on your large screen, that's your prerogative. There is, however, no sense at all in trying to persuade anyone else that this is better. By any reasonable standard, so long as the original image composition is maintained, the more elements of the frame are used for the image, the better. Films aren't shown in theatres stopped down to the center part of the screen!
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 06:57 
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I'm not sure why you say I am trying to persuade. Several times I said it comes down to preference and what I observed. I'm up for making some corrections to your points though. Aliens (1998) says the ratio is 1:85 but it does not fill the screen. It leaves bars on the top and bottom and has a nice, slightly larger than letterbox appearance. This is not the only disc to do that. I've been watching and collecting laserdiscs since they first appeared on the scene. I can assure you I'm not watching laserdiscs with bars on all 4 sides.

You say squeeze has nothing to do with filling the screen. The line resolution is of course beneficial but it was not originally done for that intention. A sentence later you say it's, "a better match to the geometry". Well, the better match and geometry has to do with filling the screen which is what I've been saying.

If you look closely at what I wrote, many images will be okay depending on the display and quality of the scaling. Whenever you take something that is in one particular state, then enhance (zoom) or reduce it, it is not the same, it is altered, that is science. That bit of distortion varies, and in some cases to me, that's enough. There are other statements I made about the early stages of squeeze discs that can be verified upon research.


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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 07:29 
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Ok, I don't have any Squeeze discs, but from what I understand, instead of having the black bars above the film taking up space on the disc, they utilize all of the vertical space on the disc, (except of course with a scope 2.35:1 movie), and compress the horizontal information into the normal sized 4:3 frame. When looked at on a 4:3 screen it would appear vertically squished, with people looking taller than they should. If you use the WIDE setting on your TV, NOT the Zoom setting, it stretches that compressed image out to the sides and fills a 16:9 screen. This should look better because instead of zooming in on an area made up of less vertical and horizontal pixel information to make it fill your screen, you have an image that fills the vertical space and once widened, fills the horizontal space.

Now, like I said, I don't own any squeeze discs nor have I seen one being played as compared to a non squeeze disc, but even still I don't understand where remington is coming from. From what it sounds like he is describing he prefers not to ZOOM his discs, but from what I understand, no zooming takes place when watching a Squeeze disc on a 16:9 TV, only using the WIDE setting, and widening of the horizontal frame to fill the screen and preserve the film's aspect ratio while filling said screen.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 07:39 
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At least the Japanese Provided the consumer with another alternative, which works for some people and not others.

I enjoyed watching each of my titles and from a collectors point of view the packaging is great.

Remington & Publius I enjoyed reading your comments, but don't fall out with each other guys it's only a laserdisc.

Enjoy watching your movies.

All the best
:)
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 07:45 
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I have (a rather warped) non-THX copy of T2 which is a Squeeze disc. My player's remote has a 16:9 button and I've always wondered what it did. Well, I tried the Squeeze disc and pressed the '16:9' button but nothing happened! Does anyone know it's function?
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 07:58 
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brmanuk wrote:
I have (a rather warped) non-THX copy of T2 which is a Squeeze disc. My player's remote has a 16:9 button and I've always wondered what it did. Well, I tried the Squeeze disc and pressed the '16:9' button but nothing happened! Does anyone know it's function?


Here's what I found at http://www.blamld.com/laserdisc/faq/

In a 16:9 disc (also called anamorphic, or 16:9 enhanced in DVD language) the picture is stretched vertically 33% (4/3*100-100), and when played back with a normal TV set you see this stretched image. When played with a 16:9 TV set or with a normal 4:3 TV set with a 16:9 switch, the original aspect ratio is restored. Here in Europe at least all of the mid- and high-end Philips and Sony 4:3 TV sets offer this button, and this mode is available on all 16:9 TV sets that I know of. In USA 16:9 compatible 4:3 TV sets are unheard of, which seems to me quite weird: after all the 16:9 button does nothing else but slows down the vertical movement of the scan beam so that the 480 lines of NTSC are displayed in a 25% smaller area. Which is, as it sounds, very inexpensive to implement.
The advantage is this: in a normal 2.35:1 NTSC transfer you get approx. 273 active video lines (482*(4/3)/2.35), but with a 16:9 release, you get approx. 365 lines (482*(16/9)/2.35). This will reduce line flicker and greatly enhance vertical resolution compared to a non-anamorphic representation.

The same numbers for a 1.85:1 film are 347 and 463 lines. And this is really interesting: with this film format the 16:9 version has to leave only 19 NTSC video lines unused. Thus, you get the full resolution of NTSC in a widescreen release!

Naturally, to make an anamorphic version of any picture material that is less wide than 16:9 (1.78:1) would be counterproductive, because then you would have to leave black bars on the left and right side of the screen and begin to lose horizontal resolution that way.

So far only few LD titles have been released in 16:9. As I'm writing this (97-08-13), some titles have been published but none are available at the moment in USA.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 13:25 
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remington wrote:
I'm not sure why you say I am trying to persuade. Several times I said it comes down to preference and what I observed. I'm up for making some corrections to your points though. Aliens (1998) says the ratio is 1:85 but it does not fill the screen. It leaves bars on the top and bottom and has a nice, slightly larger than letterbox appearance. This is not the only disc to do that. I've been watching and collecting laserdiscs since they first appeared on the scene. I can assure you I'm not watching laserdiscs with bars on all 4 sides.


If we assume that 16:9 = 1.85, that post makes no sense at all. It it basic geometry. Either there are black bars on all 4 sides or none at all. If you watch Aliens and have black bars on the top and bottom without also having them on the sides you're dreaming, because this is impossible without drastically altering the aspect ratio. There is nothing special about laserdisc when it comes to aspect ratio. Aliens will look exactly the same on LD, DVD, or Blu.

I'm not talking about personal preference; this is about a testable claim involving facts. Asserting that a movie will be letterboxed (which I'm interpreting as "having black bars on the top and bottom") on laserdisc but not on other formats with the same aspect ratio on the same TV is completely illogical.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 17:11 
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philburque46: Your right I was just pointing out that I don't zoom letterbox discs. Squeeze discs are a different issue, if I was to watch one I would just leave it as is. Read about some of squeeze discs drawbacks (on my prior post) just for clarity.

ucfmatt: You wrote that Predator is 1:85:1 and that equates to filling the screen. What I'm saying is the Aliens disc says 1:85:1 and doesn't fill the screen, just an observation. As far as zooming or using the widen mode on tvs. Who says to do that? That's a choice. Looking at a letterbox (as is-straight off the disc) on a 52 or even 46 inch display looks good to me.

Is it written on the back of a jacket to use the zoom feature when viewing letterbox discs? Some disc jackets even say the "black bars are normal" as to imply that's how it should be displayed. The concept of zooming on letterbox discs is an "in-house" thing and can be done at your own discretion.

This is a great place for friendly discussions.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 17:33 
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remington wrote:
philburque46: Your right I was just pointing out that I don't zoom letterbox discs. Squeeze discs are a different issue, if I was to watch one I would just leave it as is. Read about some of squeeze discs drawbacks (on my prior post) just for clarity.

ucfmatt: You wrote that Predator is 1:85:1 and that equates to filling the screen. What I'm saying is the Aliens disc says 1:85:1 and doesn't fill the screen, just an observation. As far as zooming or using the widen mode on tvs. Who says to do that? That's a choice. Looking at a letterbox (as is-straight off the disc) on a 52 or even 46 inch display looks good to me.

Is it written on the back of a jacket to use the zoom feature when viewing letterbox discs? Some disc jackets even say the "black bars are normal" as to imply that's how it should be displayed. The concept of zooming on letterbox discs is an "in-house" thing and can be done at your own discretion.

This is a great place for friendly discussions.


Agreed. Sometimes I get caught up over a single (maybe inconsequential) detail but if something doesn't make sense (to me) it's hard to move on and enjoy the discussion. I'm sure there a misunderstanding here somewhere, but I was never trying to make a point about whether it's better to use zoom or not, etc. That comes down to personal preference and different people enjoy their movies in different ways.

What I was confused over and seeking clarification on is comments made about letterboxing and laserdiscs which seem to contradict my understanding of displays, aspect ratios, etc. On a standard 4:3 screen there will always be black bars when watching a movie like Alien or Predator. Since LD predates widescreen sets they would mention this on the back of the jacket, just like widescreen VHS tapes and early DVDs. No agruments there. However when considering that 16:9 is roughly the same shape as 1.85:1 then on a widescreen TV the shape of the movie is roughly the same as the display, so there should not be any black bars on the top and bottom.

This isn't exactly related to the current topic, but since I have no hands-on experience with Squeeze discs I thought perhaps there was more to it than I originally thought. I am enjoying this discussion and I'm really digging the overall attitude and etiquette of these boards in general.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 18:29 
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Yes, it's great to keep it civil! I'm sure you've seen some of the hardcore nasty-ness that has appeared on other forums over the years. We all get heavily caught up in our points sometimes. Everyone here loves laserdisc or related equipment, so we have more in common than not. Hey, maybe I'll take another look at MY squeeze disc and have some fun with it. I was mostly writing from a perspective of 16:9 forgetting somewhat about 4:3 displays.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 20:44 
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Letterboxing & "squeezing" are both accommodations to the fact that televisions, unlike theatre projection systems, don't have variable-sized screens & apertures. In any movie theatre, the film is always shown at the full height of the screen, & the width is adjusted to fit the image. In the video world, since the dimensions can't be changed, the full width of the image is used, & the height is cut down as necessary.

Squeeze discs, or anamorphic DVDs, provide a way of using more of the available image space, by matching the geometry of the image better to that of the screen.

brmanuk wrote:
I have (a rather warped) non-THX copy of T2 which is a Squeeze disc. My player's remote has a 16:9 button and I've always wondered what it did. Well, I tried the Squeeze disc and pressed the '16:9' button but nothing happened! Does anyone know it's function?

It puts +5 V DC on the chroma line of the S-Video connector, to signal to Japanese TV sets that they should switch into 16:9 mode.

Incidentally, there have been TVs with a "squeeze mode" marketed in the US. There were a few models of early rear-projection HDTV, for example, which ran in 4:3 ratio when fed standard video, but in 16:9 when fed high-definition video (or when a switch was activated). They were rare, though.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2011, 21:30 
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publius wrote:
Letterboxing & "squeezing" are both accommodations to the fact that televisions, unlike theatre projection systems, don't have variable-sized screens & apertures. In any movie theatre, the film is always shown at the full height of the screen, & the width is adjusted to fit the image. In the video world, since the dimensions can't be changed, the full width of the image is used, & the height is cut down as necessary.

Squeeze discs, or anamorphic DVDs, provide a way of using more of the available image space, by matching the geometry of the image better to that of the screen.

brmanuk wrote:
I have (a rather warped) non-THX copy of T2 which is a Squeeze disc. My player's remote has a 16:9 button and I've always wondered what it did. Well, I tried the Squeeze disc and pressed the '16:9' button but nothing happened! Does anyone know it's function?

It puts +5 V DC on the chroma line of the S-Video connector, to signal to Japanese TV sets that they should switch into 16:9 mode.

Incidentally, there have been TVs with a "squeeze mode" marketed in the US. There were a few models of early rear-projection HDTV, for example, which ran in 4:3 ratio when fed standard video, but in 16:9 when fed high-definition video (or when a switch was activated). They were rare, though.

A lot of the later Sony WEGA 4:3 TVs have a "16:9" mode. Supposedly that would "squeeze" an anamorphic image to the proper 16:9 view, but (if I correctly remember how this was described in Widescreen Magazine) would only raster the image that is in the 16:9 area, not wasting picture elements on the black bars--thus increasing detail. They had this for both the SD and HD-Ready 4:3 WEGAs

I have a 24" and 40" WEGA that have this. Only the 40" is HD-Ready. Both do seem to give a more detailed picture with anamorphic DVDs than if you use the DVD player to letterbox the image.

This thread on AVS also talks about it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=787348
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2011, 06:09 
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I have a Toshiba flatscreen LCD in the mail to me that is supposed to have a aspect setting specifically for squeeze programing. I checked a online copy of the manual first to see what features the TV had, and was supprised to read that feature in the manual. Being I have a squeeze disc I am excited to see how it works.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011, 04:24 
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One of my Demo laserdiscs I think is in squeeze. Is there any way to be positive on it? In 4:3 ratio setting it has black bars on just the sides (no black bars on the top or bottom) and some parts really show looking squished.

On full screen where it stretches just the sides (and not the top and bottom) the picture looks normal. So would that be a squeeze ld? or is there another way to tell.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011, 04:39 
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That's pretty much the definition of "squeeze", there. Which demo disc is it? Can you describe it? Does it have an LDDb reference? If you have the jacket, there should be a note, & there may be one on the disc label. If those are in languages you can't read, post a picture, & someone will be able to tell you. If it's a Japanese disc, the little info block on the back at the bottom is a good place to look.
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 Post subject: Re: Squeeze LD
PostPosted: 06 Dec 2011, 05:34 
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It's a Japanese disc, in a plain white jacket with a corner sticker. No other printing on the front or back of the jacket. The disc label has english on side A and some Japanese printing on side B which might help if someone can translate it.

I can't find this in the database, but here are some pictures which might help.


Attachments:
Hitachi demo disc 1.JPG
Hitachi demo disc 1.JPG [ 127.65 KiB | Viewed 8171 times ]


Last edited by vinylcollector on 06 Dec 2011, 05:42, edited 1 time in total.
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