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 Post subject: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2011, 05:35 
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I was wondering if somebody here have actually watched a MUSE Laserdisc on an HDTV and what they think of the picture quality. I was wondering how does it compare with that of 1080i HD broadcasts and Blu-ray? Is MUSE more or just as compressed as broadcast 1080i? Is it on par with Blu-ray?
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2011, 05:43 
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MUSE bandwidth compression works in a completely different way from digital broadcast or Blu-ray systems. You can read a bit about it in my article here, but what you need to know is that it sends analog values of a part of the picture elements in each frame, & reconstructs the rest from previous frames & adjacent elements in the same frame. As a result, for example, it doesn't break up into blocks or stutter they way I have seen broadcast HD do, but it may get blurry.

Unfortunately, since modern film-to-video transfer is much advanced beyond that of the early to middle 1990s, Hi-Vision movie discs do not give a fair idea of what the system is capable of. Documentary or demonstration discs with a video source make a better comparison.
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2011, 07:20 
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so is it as clear as blu ray?
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2011, 08:44 
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Does anyone have the ability to take screenshots of MUSE discs? I can run my LD player through my PC and capture frames but I don't think I'll ever be able to get my hands on a MUSE player. I've always wondered what MUSE looks like but have never been able to find any screenshots or pictures of the TV screen at all to see what the format actually looks like. Does anyone here have any?
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2011, 13:03 
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hippiedalek wrote:
Does anyone have the ability to take screenshots of MUSE discs? I can run my LD player through my PC and capture frames but I don't think I'll ever be able to get my hands on a MUSE player. I've always wondered what MUSE looks like but have never been able to find any screenshots or pictures of the TV screen at all to see what the format actually looks like. Does anyone here have any?


+1

This would be fantastic! I've wanted to see a MUSE disc ever since I heard about them!
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2011, 17:15 
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It's very difficult to get a video-capture card which will accept the 1125-line component signal, & I don't have one. I do, however, have a standard-definition video capture card, so I can capture the S-Video output of a MUSE-NTSC converter. (Some models of MUSE decoder have this built in.) It's not the same, but it should at least give an idea. I'll do that as soon as my equipment comes from Japan, although that may be a couple of months.

I understand there have been a few people who have used video capture cards with HD component in to dub MUSE discs to another format. Presumably they could do full-resolution screenshots.
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2011, 17:30 
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Well, if you have a projector or bright LCD or Plasma (basically a display that won't give you the refresh lines when you take a picture of it) pictures can work so you can give us some kind of idea of what it looks like.

Kind of like this guy and his photos of his movies . . .

Moulin Rouge D-Theater screens
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2011, 17:45 
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I don't use a capture card, instead I have a device I bought from Maplin which is basically a composite to USB cable: http://www.maplin.co.uk/usb-video-and-audio-grabber-340918. This isn't the exact model but is very similar and I notice in the specification tab under output formats it lists "For Video clips: MPEG-2 (up to resolution 1080i)."
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2011, 18:13 
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hippiedalek wrote:
I don't use a capture card, instead I have a device I bought from Maplin which is basically a composite to USB cable: http://www.maplin.co.uk/usb-video-and-audio-grabber-340918. This isn't the exact model but is very similar and I notice in the specification tab under output formats it lists "For Video clips: MPEG-2 (up to resolution 1080i)."

Only thing is you can't get HD resolutions from a composite or S-video connection, which is what that device supports.

There are only a few capture cards that will capture HD content from a non-firewire connection (ie: component, RGB, HDMI, etc.), because of the movie studios trying to keep piracy down to minimum.
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2011, 18:39 
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elahrairrah wrote:
Well, if you have a projector or bright LCD or Plasma (basically a display that won't give you the refresh lines when you take a picture of it) pictures can work so you can give us some kind of idea of what it looks like.

I do have a couple of photos which show that kind of thing, grabbed off the Internet. This one is an ad from Yahoo Japan, intended to show off the system.
Here is a video of the same system, but it's low quality, so you can't really tell anything. Also the program is Sakura East Japan, & some reviewers think poorly of the two Sakura discs.


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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2011, 07:34 
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Here's another photo of a MUSE disc playing courtesy of AVSFORUM.com
Image
Again not a direct capture but a capture none the less.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 20 Nov 2011, 10:20 
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randomtvandmovie wrote:
Here's another photo of a MUSE disc playing courtesy of AVSFORUM.com
Image
Again not a direct capture but a capture none the less.


Mah well I could make pictures that bad too, if only my camera wasn't almost 12 years old by now and maxing out at 1600x1200...
But that picture just looks plain bad. This could even be a vhs screenshot.
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2011, 12:28 
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lons_vex wrote:
Mah well I could make pictures that bad too, if only my camera wasn't almost 12 years old by now and maxing out at 1600x1200...
But that picture just looks plain bad. This could even be a vhs screenshot.


So I've kept my word and made some crappy shots with my outdated camera.
Pictures are not really able to show what MUSE looks like in reality, with a better camera at full resolution it might be possible though.

LD was playing while pics were taken, no freeze frame. Some images are stationary though.
Pictures are unmodified like they came out of the camera.

Anyhow, so all the MUSE shots are from Sony: The Test Disc (1995) [00MW-0009], the picture is not zoomed in, it's 1.78:1 material filling out the 16:9 display completely.

http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_01.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_02.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_03.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_04.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_05.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_06.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_07.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_08.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_09.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_10.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_11.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_12.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_13.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_14.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_15.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/muse_16.jpg

For reference, here are some SQUEEZE NTSC LD shots from DTS Experience (1998) [PILW-1258], again 1.78:1 material filling the screen entirely without zoom.

http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_01.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_02.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_03.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_04.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_05.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_06c.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_07.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_08c.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_09.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_10c.jpg
http://www.pustan.com/test/squeeze_11c.jpg

Donations for a better camera welcome :)
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2011, 13:57 
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Hello lons_vex,

Some great shots there of the MUSE content, and thank you very much for taking the time to post these.

I have the DTS EXPERIENCE laserdisc o which is good for demonstrations, I also have the very first DTS demo disc that was for retailers demonstrations marketing only.

It has the Jurassic Park sounds amongst many others, and I also have the THX LD Demo Disc, of which are very collectable.

Thank you again.

P.S. I have a muse player HLD X9 but no muse decoder or disc's as of yet, so I will just have to wait and see. :thumbup: :)
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2011, 13:59 
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Some great pictures there, lons_vex, you can clearly see a difference in picture quality.
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2011, 17:22 
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Wow thanks for the pics. Very impressive!
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2011, 17:34 
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You can definitely see more detail in the MUSE pictures over the squeeze pictures. Aside from the off-colors because of the process of taking pictures of a screen, I'd say it's pretty darn good for 90s analog hi-definition technology!
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 22 Nov 2011, 20:21 
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So, that's Perfect Blue in those screenshots, right? Supposedly one of the MUSE demo discs includes an anime clip or two, but I don't know what it's from. Somewhere I have a photo someone took of Cardcaptor Sakura on a MUSE broadcast, 4:3 aspect ratio with black bars on the sides — not the best use of the format!
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 23 Nov 2011, 00:09 
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publius wrote:
So, that's Perfect Blue in those screenshots, right? Supposedly one of the MUSE demo discs includes an anime clip or two, but I don't know what it's from. Somewhere I have a photo someone took of Cardcaptor Sakura on a MUSE broadcast, 4:3 aspect ratio with black bars on the sides — not the best use of the format!


Indeed some of the squeeze shots are from Perfect Blue. Too bad they never released the complete movie as squeeze+dts, I would have surely bought that.
BTW, the genius behind Perfect Blue (and several other outstanding animes) Kon Satoshi, sadly died of cancer in August 2010, (aged 46 iirc). ;_;
In one of his interviews on the japanese Blu-Ray of Perfect Blue, he shows the LD box Perfect Blue: Special Collection Box (1997) [PILA-9002] in some kinda conference room. The interview gets a bit weird later, when a woman (wearing a short skirt) asks him about the rape scene and they start discussing it in detail ... wtf japan :)

Anyhow about that MUSE demo disc NHK: This is Hi-Vision [HVPR-07051], I would be very interested to know what clips exactly are on there. Maybe n$a knows such details... Or it might be Ursa Minor Blue, which I did not like one bit. If you ever plan buying Ursa, make sure the insert sheet is included, as it has technical details about film transfer etc. which you will find very interesting I bet (including some technical drawings iirc).
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 Post subject: Re: How do MUSE LDs compare to HDTV and Blu-ray?
PostPosted: 23 Nov 2011, 00:44 
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I really do want a copy of Ursa Minor Blue, mostly because it's the only animation released on MUSE. I'm not the biggest fan of the "experimental" or "art" animation, but unfortunately the rumours that Mononoke & some of the other Ghibli films were to be released never came true. (I got that from a page by someone who had bought a late release, possibly Jumanji, which had a questionnaire asking "which of these titles would you like to see on Hi-Vision LD".) So thanks for telling me about that insert, because it is exactly the kind of thing I like.

If I'm not mistaken, there are neither any Squeeze anime titles nor DTS. It's disappointing, considering all the care which went into releases like the Patlabor movies & the final Wings of Honneamise release.
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