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 Post subject: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 09:37 
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Hi all

This is asked more out of curiously then it is nesserey at this stage. My 32" LCD display doesn't have any zoom functions at all to choose from (my living room 55" display does, but obviously that is not where my LD player is connected.) Anyway, whether the Laserdisc transfer is mastered in pan & scan/full screen or letterbox, the only aspect ratio options that my display has to choose from are 4:3 mode (which for letterbox presentations applies black bars above, bellow, left and right sides of the image forming a box shape with the small image area centered in the middle of the screen), and 16:9 mode which slightly horizontally stretches the image to fill the screen with black bars only located above and bellow the image. Some black bars on the top and bottom for some letterbox movies are thicker then others like say Star Wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace and/or Goldeneye vs Men in Black, but none the less from what I understand, letterboxing regardless all have black bars to an extent located above and bellow the image which is fine by me because I understand why they are meant to be there for the widescreen format to work. I tend to use the 16:9 mode to watch Laserdiscs in general which I know is not exactly a popular decision (although I personally don't actuelly have a problem with it), but without no zoom modes my only other option would be to view stuff in windowbox on my LCD which is not something I like doing.

Anyway, I use regular red and white composite cables from the CLD-925 Laserdisc player hooked up directly to the HDTV. Other units connected to the same display as the LD player include a XBox 360 Elite via HDMI, and a Panasonic DVD-S68 upconverting DVD player via HDMI as well.

Anyway, I was just wondering is there any ways to connect the Laserdisc player into something so I have the availability of zooming and/or upconverting? Not that upconverting is really needed since in terms of picture quality, I do actuelly get brilliant results (which means the comb filter installed inside my HD TV must be doing a good job), but having the zoom options would be a nice luxury to have.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 10:52 
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My sister asked me how to connect her iPhone to her TV the other day because her and her boyfriend couldn't figure it out. They had the iPod composite cable and the TV, a Visio, seemed to lack any kind of composite input. It turns out that you need to hook the composite to the Y (green) of the component input, and it understands how to give you an actual color image from that.

What I'm getting at is that newer stuff is cheaping out so hardcore now that you have to share composite and component on the same single socket! The only SD socket on the set. S-Video disappeared from almost every set years ago. So, if your TV lacks any kind of zoom...well, I guess that's the way they are being shipped now.

My XBR90 lacks zoom on the HDMI input, but it has it on all the SD inputs. This is the case with a lot of TVs, that is, the features available vary by mode. What model number and brand is the TV?

If there really in no zoom, that sucks, but yes there are ways of doing it externally. The reality though is that most of these devices cost more than the TV is probably worth. I have a Sony KDL32XBR6 and it has all those modes. It also handles composite rather well for an LCD. Its say its worth about $250 max on Craigslist and I don't think you can get any good scaler for that kind of money.

Then there are old wide Wegas and that cost like $50 (if not free) and are the best, IMHO, as long as your back (and TV stand) are strong.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 11:53 
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I bought it about 3 or 4 years ago. Its a Soniq 32" LCD QSL322TV7.

http://www.jbhifionline.com.au/plasma-l ... -tv/436634

Its far from a household name and it actuelly used to be my main TV, but has since made its way into the bedroom when I upgraded to a 55". If you read the reviews on that site I linked to above, it actuelly did get positive feedback for a budget sized display.

It actually does have a S-Video input, 3 HDMI ports, YPBPR 1, YPBPR 2, a 'video' input and a VGA input as well.

And like I said my new 55" LED that I upgraded to for the lounge room which is just over a year old and also is not a household brand name itself, does have quite a few zoom options (as well as the 4:3 and 16:9 modes too). So I am guessing it just has something to do with the individual TV manufacturers doing different things.

If that's the case with the external scaling devices then I guess its simply not worth it since I don't have that kinda money and even then I don't know if I could justify the expense. If there were a quite cheap alternative then I'd be open to it though.

I'm assuming this "old wide Wegas" is a brand of CRT TV? I guess I'll take your word on it (about them being the best) but preferably I'd like for my Laserdisc player to stay in my room and I am in no rush to replace my 32" LCD with a big old CRT which also does a great job with upconverting DVD on my upscaling DVD player and also HD video gaming as well.

but anyway, other then the lack of zoom modes on my 32" display, like I said overall it does a good job with handling Laserdisc in terms of picture quality, and as hard as it might be for some of you to believe the 16:9 "stretch" mode is actuelly pretty easy to adjust to (so far anyway even though there is some distortion ), and I'm pretty picky when it comes to these things in general. Still, it would have been nice to have the ability to zoom up without it setting me back a ton.. :(
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 13:07 
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Wega is what Sony called their CRTs after the Trinitron name got old.

The size and weight can be a pain for people used to such conviniently thin and light stuff like what is the norm today, but it's soooo nice to just not have to think about scaling or stretching or any of that stuff.

Downstairs I have an old JVC pro monitor for arcade games. I see people talk endlessly on other forms about NTSC encoders, sync issues, VGA up scalers, trying to get fake scanlines to look right, expensive line doubles like the XRGB series, etc. Meanwhile I just plug my boards straight into this thing and its %100 analog 240p RGB purity. Zero artifacting or dot crawl, all the old school interlace based special effects work perfectly and there is zero delay.

The new stuff is great for Bluray, PS3, Apple TV, etc, but sometimes the easiest way to do stuff is just to match the era of the source and display. It's amazing how much crap you can skip dealing with this way, and with quality CRTs being literally FREE these days the the only reason to not stock up on the things is if you have space issues.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 16:55 
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The Wega (for those who don't know, it's pronounced Vega) name was applied only to Sony's sets that used the FD Trinitron tube, which was a perfectly flat, in both directions, CRT tube that Sony developed in partnership with Dow-Corning glass - it used specially formulated and tempered automotive windshield glass for the front faceplate to help it withstand the incredible pressures the flat, square tube was put under. The Trinitron name stayed on the sets that used the conventional Trinitron tube that was flat vertically, but had a slight barrel-shaped curve horizontally. For a short time they also applied the Wega name to some of their flat plasma or LCD sets, almost using it as a replacement for the XBR name to identify their best-of-the-best sets, but XBR stayed as the high-end marker for televisions, like Pioneer's Elite name or Sony ES. Their low end CRT's with the flat tube didn't always get the Wega name and those were just FD Trinitron sets.

The very first Wega's introduced in 1998 were a 32-inch and 35-inch, and both came in the standard Wega name and in XBR Wega versions. A $9,000 35-inch 16x9 XBR Wega was also introduced at the same time - it didn't have the improved fine-pitch Apeture Grill like the later 16x9 Wega's, but even so, Consumer Reports - in a rare rave review - tested it and said it was the very best television they had ever tested and in many parameters even surpassed their $35,000 professional Sony Broadcast monitor. The 35-inch XBR Sony had introduced in 1997 to go along with the DVD launch was not only their first set with component inputs, but the first that had a color demodulator that decoded the full 1.5MHz chroma bandwidth of LaserDisc's and broadcasts - it also was Sony's first set to use a red phosphor that was much closer to the original red specified by the NTSC (Sony's reds had been quite orange up to that time) - and happily, Sony continued that improvement with all the high-end Wega's having the improved red phosphor and wideband chroma decoding - Sony even went further and put in an "accurate" NTSC decoding mode that shifted the color decoding axis back to the I/Q standard, eliminating red and green push, as well as setting the white balance to the correct D6500 Kelvin color temp. They made these switchable so people could have an inaccurate picture if they wished. Their ultimate XBR Wega, the 16x9 model 910 (I think that's the model number) had the incredible Super Fine Pitch Apeture Grill for over 900 lines of horizontal resolution and the blue and green phosphors were also replaced with phosphors that were much closer to the NTSC standard, producing an image that had an almost "Technicolor" look due to its incredible saturation and purity - it could also produce shades of yellow and other colors that standard sets simply couldn't do, making it a transparent window into the original film you were watching. The only current televisions that can come close to the color gaumut the Sony reproduced are the DLP projectors that have the 6 or more segment color wheels with the addition of yellow, cyan and magenta filters in addition to the normal RGB filters. The only drawback to Sony's HD CRT offerings is the awful DRC - Digital Reality Creation scaler they built into the sets - I've never seen one that worked right without damaging the picture or adding aliasing artifacts to the image.

I don't know if Sony's final CRT HD sets would take progressive signals natively via HDMI and bypass the DRC - does anyone know?
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 05 Feb 2013, 19:48 
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I don't know if the HDMI bypasses the DRC on mine. I know things sent via HDMI look absolutely amazing, so maybe it does bypass a portion of it. The options are always selectable though.

I struggled with the DRC for a while. If you use the defaults it basically makes everything look like a cheap LCD, but it can be mastered. The "cinema" and "interlaced" modes are extremely important for anyone who plays old video games (use Cinema for movies via SD, use Interlaced for old 16 bit games that use SFX based in flicker/interlacing tricks such as shadows in Street Fighter).

The RealtyxClarity grid is the biggest snag. I eventually decided I liked it with a Clarity of 100 and a Reality of 1. This seems to bring out the least noise.

This is the XBR 960, btw, which is the final 34" wide model (I think).

If I had one wish it would be that it just had a regular SD mode, which it doesn't. The tube is always 4x.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 02:35 
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disclord wrote:

Their ultimate XBR Wega, the 16x9 model 910 (I think that's the model number) had the incredible Super Fine Pitch Apeture Grill for over 900 lines of horizontal resolution and the blue and green phosphors were also replaced with phosphors that were much closer to the NTSC standard, producing an image that had an almost "Technicolor" look due to its incredible saturation and purity - it could also produce shades of yellow and other colors that standard sets simply couldn't do, making it a transparent window into the original film you were watching. The only current televisions that can come close to the color gaumut the Sony reproduced are the DLP projectors that have the 6 or more segment color wheels with the addition of yellow, cyan and magenta filters in addition to the normal RGB filters. The only drawback to Sony's HD CRT offerings is the awful DRC - Digital Reality Creation scaler they built into the sets - I've never seen one that worked right without damaging the picture or adding aliasing artifacts to the image.

I don't know if Sony's final CRT HD sets would take progressive signals natively via HDMI and bypass the DRC - does anyone know?


signofzeta wrote:
This is the XBR 960, btw, which is the final 34" wide model (I think).


There were 3 34" 16:9 Sony models that had the super fine pitch (5 if you count the "N" models with the anti-glare coating removed). The XBR-960 is the newest one and from what I've read is generally considered the best in terms of quality. The KD-34XS955 was the first of the them, then the KV-34XBR910 and finally the KD-34XBR960 which is pretty much the holy grail of widescreen glass tube CRTs.

The only 4:3 with super fine pitch is the 36" KD-36XS955. A 1.85:1 movie with the letterbox bars on that set is equivalent to a 33" widescreen area so it's comparable to the 34" models. Since you wouldn't have to zoom in I think this might actually be better for LDs than any of the 16:9 sets. I know the forum member LizardKingJr has this set and in his words:

lizardkingjr wrote:

The SONY KD-36XS955 has the super-fine pitch tube, an excellent comb filter, and is already a 4:3 set, so letterboxed LDs look "normal" without any monkeying around with the picture aspect ratio/geometry. All native 16:9 content is automatically letterboxed (DVD/BD/HD satellite/HD cable), which makes the viewable area equivalent to your 34" KD-34XBR970 -- or the KD-34XBR960 or the KD-34XS955. It's the finest direct-view CRT I've seen specifically for LD display.


The wikipedia page has some good info about the different models of Wega Tvs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 03:13 
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That anti glare coating is crap, btw.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 07:37 
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signofzeta wrote:
Wega is what Sony called their CRTs after the Trinitron name got old.

The size and weight can be a pain for people used to such conviniently thin and light stuff like what is the norm today, but it's soooo nice to just not have to think about scaling or stretching or any of that stuff.

Downstairs I have an old JVC pro monitor for arcade games. I see people talk endlessly on other forms about NTSC encoders, sync issues, VGA up scalers, trying to get fake scanlines to look right, expensive line doubles like the XRGB series, etc. Meanwhile I just plug my boards straight into this thing and its %100 analog 240p RGB purity. Zero artifacting or dot crawl, all the old school interlace based special effects work perfectly and there is zero delay.

The new stuff is great for Bluray, PS3, Apple TV, etc, but sometimes the easiest way to do stuff is just to match the era of the source and display. It's amazing how much crap you can skip dealing with this way, and with quality CRTs being literally FREE these days the the only reason to not stock up on the things is if you have space issues.

I understand what you're saying, it makes sense and obviously since CRT was the attached technology at the time to Laserdiscs (with the exceptions of possibly MUSE Hi-Vision and proper 16x9 anamorphic enhanced Laserdiscs), but I actuelly don't have the storage space unless I ditch my bedroom LCD which I don't plan on doing in favor of a replacement CRT for reasons I outlined previously. I do actuelly have a bulky CRT that still works but it has shifty colour issues so that's out of the question.

Anyway, I am actuelly quite content with the overall results I am getting with LD on my LCD anyway, so its not exactly a buzz killer as I will continue to buy and watch Laserdiscs for as long as my player keeps working.. I can live with a little bit of image stretching to fill the screen because thankfully and truefully it actuelly hasn't bothered me, well not yet anyway.. :mrgreen:
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 16:21 
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Here's the list of "Super Fine Pitch" WEGAs . . .

Image

Only ever saw the 4:3 and 16:9 XS955 models pop up on Craigslist. If the 4:3 one was closer to me (it was in Allentown, PA) at the time I got my 40" Hi-Scan XBR (one step below the SFP line), I probably would have gotten that one instead.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 16:29 
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disclord wrote:
I don't know if Sony's final CRT HD sets would take progressive signals natively via HDMI and bypass the DRC - does anyone know?

I know when I fed my WEGA an image from an upscaling/progressive scan DVD player through component set to 480p or 720p, it would give off interlacing artifacts. So I just set it to 480i and it looked fine. I have my blu-ray player connected to the HDCP compliant DVI input and set to 1080i and it looks nice. I didn't toggle with the DRC controls, but I guess if I set it to "Progressive" rather than "Interlaced" it would look better.

When I get a chance, I'll set the blu-ray player to 720p and see what happens.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 19:51 
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elahrairrah wrote:
disclord wrote:
I don't know if Sony's final CRT HD sets would take progressive signals natively via HDMI and bypass the DRC - does anyone know?

I know when I fed my WEGA an image from an upscaling/progressive scan DVD player through component set to 480p or 720p, it would give off interlacing artifacts. So I just set it to 480i and it looked fine. I have my blu-ray player connected to the HDCP compliant DVI input and set to 1080i and it looks nice. I didn't toggle with the DRC controls, but I guess if I set it to "Progressive" rather than "Interlaced" it would look better.

When I get a chance, I'll set the blu-ray player to 720p and see what happens.


"Progressive" is the least useful mode, from my experience. My menu system says it for "still images".

For movies I use the Cinema mode, or Cinematic, or whatever it is. Your set isn't the same as mine though so maybe this stuff doesn't even have the same meaning.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 20:21 
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and in case you were wondering how much pressure that front glass was under (as Disclord mentioned in his post above) this will give you an idea . . .

YouTube - smashing the screen of a 40" WEGA
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 22:44 
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Wow.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 06 Feb 2013, 23:44 
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ucfmatt wrote:
The only 4:3 with super fine pitch is the 36" KD-36XS955. A 1.85:1 movie with the letterbox bars on that set is equivalent to a 33" widescreen area so it's comparable to the 34" models. Since you wouldn't have to zoom in I think this might actually be better for LDs than any of the 16:9 sets. I know the forum member LizardKingJr has this set and in his words:

lizardkingjr wrote:

The SONY KD-36XS955 has the super-fine pitch tube, an excellent comb filter, and is already a 4:3 set, so letterboxed LDs look "normal" without any monkeying around with the picture aspect ratio/geometry. All native 16:9 content is automatically letterboxed (DVD/BD/HD satellite/HD cable), which makes the viewable area equivalent to your 34" KD-34XBR970 -- or the KD-34XBR960 or the KD-34XS955. It's the finest direct-view CRT I've seen specifically for LD display.


The wikipedia page has some good info about the different models of Wega Tvs. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA

Woot! I made one of the cool threads. :thumbup:

TLK :cool:
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2013, 11:54 
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UPDATE:

I was doing some research on google about video scalers and I found this: http://www.zantech.com.au/converter/scaler/cp295n.html

If I understand it correctly, bascially it claims to upconvert any analog source that uses composite (like Laserdisc) to a HDMI output of a higher resolution like 720p/1080i/1080p obviously for HDTVs. Apparently it even has aspect ratio options. Would this mean that it may have a built-in zoom mode that I could use?

Also overall, can anyone give me advice about this upscaler? Would anyone recommend I buy it?

FYI, I am not looking for anything fancy or delux, just something that will give me control of a actual zoom mode (since my LCD lacks one). The upconverted image to one of the HD resolutions is just a bonus.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 08 Feb 2013, 15:39 
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Well, it sounds good, but there is a PDF of the manual available on that page. I would dig through that thoroughly to see if it does what you want it to do.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 09 Feb 2013, 01:46 
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elahrairrah wrote:
Well, it sounds good, but there is a PDF of the manual available on that page. I would dig through that thoroughly to see if it does what you want it to do.

I downloaded the PDF of the manual. After flipping through it a couple of times it only makes mention of aspect ratio adjustments, but that easily could well be the choice of only 4:3 mode or 16:9 mode which wouldn't be much help since what I am lacking and what I am needing is a zoom mode.

Edit: It doesn't matter. Just found out its $288. Way way too much.
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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 10 Feb 2013, 20:09 
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disclord wrote:
The Wega (for those who don't know, it's pronounced Vega) name was applied only to Sony's sets that used the FD Trinitron tube, which was a perfectly flat, in both directions, CRT tube that Sony developed in partnership with Dow-Corning glass - it used specially formulated and tempered automotive windshield glass for the front faceplate to help it withstand the incredible pressures the flat, square tube was put under. The Trinitron name stayed on the sets that used the conventional Trinitron tube that was flat vertically, but had a slight barrel-shaped curve horizontally. For a short time they also applied the Wega name to some of their flat plasma or LCD sets, almost using it as a replacement for the XBR name to identify their best-of-the-best sets, but XBR stayed as the high-end marker for televisions, like Pioneer's Elite name or Sony ES. Their low end CRT's with the flat tube didn't always get the Wega name and those were just FD Trinitron sets.


Yep, I remember when buying my 42" rear-pro LCD that it seemed kinda odd that it had the Wega logo on it. KDF-E42A10 Grand Wega, to be specific.

je


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 Post subject: Re: Aspect Ratio zooming and Upconverting questions
PostPosted: 11 Feb 2013, 15:54 
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Yeah, I still see some WEGA LCD projection TVs popping up on CL from time to time.

Like this one:

Image
55" Sony Grand Wega TV w/ Glass Stand


I take it the WEGA name was replaced with the BRAVIA line.
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