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 Post subject: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2015, 09:05 
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Excitement plus here. The CLD-R7G arrived today, all in one piece and fully functional after shipping :D :D So far just checking it's working okay is as far as I've got.

I'm hoping this will be the player to make me happy after being a bit let down by the smear and comb-filter artefacts of the LD-S9 which I first bought over the CLD-R7G. Having done some more reading since that decision I know the R7 has a few fans on here and the reputation of the NEC filter is better than that of the Mitsubishi.
Well time to start doing some watching; will report back later!
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2015, 11:46 
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welcome to the R7G club

did you get it from Ebay or did you buy it directly from Japan?

I love my player, she's in very near mint condition, looks practicly brand new very clean without scuffmarks, only downside is I have some tiny small black spots on front panel, these stains are age related.
how is the cosmetic condition of your player?

mine works flawlessly w/o problems, how is yours?
does it work perfect?

cheers


Last edited by Guest on 10 Sep 2015, 14:28, edited 1 time in total.
  
 
 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2015, 14:21 
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if you don't have a remote you can't adjust any of the filter issues.
enjoy the player.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 10 Sep 2015, 15:22 
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Hope you enjoy it! Had to sell mine last year, and I regret it just a little!
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 02:24 
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Thanks guys,

Well it's a club I'm very happy to have joined. Sat up way way past normal bedtime last night spinning quite a few discs; thankfully with a few hours flexi-time saved up getting to work late wasn't a problem!!

Purchased it from yahoo jp; having now learnt the hard way with the S9 that ebay often suffers some pretty inflated prices. Hadn't clued up to yahoo and proxy bidding at the time. Ironically the ebay seller was in Japan, but clearly well aware of it's potential for higher prices. I have to ship from either Japan or the US; saving shipping on a local purchase isn't really an option.

The player came with the remote and the original box as well! It's in really nice condition too, no marks on the front panel I've noticed and it even came with the protective caps/inserts still on all the connectors the previous owner wasn't using. I'm taking all that as being owned by someone who would have looked after it well.

Prior to last night I was thinking the S9 might become my back-up player depending on how much I liked the R7. At the moment my thoughts are more along the lines of selling it (even if at a loss) to put towards the X9, or a second R7 as backup.

Looking forward to heading home tonight for a movie on the big screen :D
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 03:14 
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X9 will likely have the same comb filter artifacts as s9, afaik they have the comb filter. Try dvl-h9, its a dvd/ld combo player with the same nec comb filter as r7g. It may turn out to be even better player than r7g as it should have less inherited noise floor.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 05:30 
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Thanks for the tip,

I was also interested in the X9 for the red laser and it's muse capability which I'm very curious to be able to see.

Having done a whole lot of internet searching and reading I'm aware the S9/X9 share the same filter and also that many people are using the comb filters in DVR's as an upgrade to the one in their LD player. There's a thread here about panasonic DVR's which seem to have a reputation for good comb filters. Of course there's the Crystalio II that everyone raves about but I'm yet to see one for sale and I'm sure the price is high, so considering my Duo already does a great job of deinterlacing and scaling I'd like to find another way if possible.

I also found this discussion on another forum (http://www.avsforum.com/forum/37-video- ... loves.html). It's all about comb filters (their purpose is for PC capture but it's all still relevant) and makes an interesting read. User 'Fudoh' realises part way through his X9 filter has the same problems I did with the S9. If you jump to page 4 post 118 his solution was a Pioneer DVR-LX70 which he claims gave an excellent result. There are some comparison screen captures from it there too, which as best you can tell from a capture do look promising. It kind of made sense to me too that Pioneers designers who had so much to do with LD might bother to cater to all those customers with good filters in their DVR's.

That DVR seems hard to find and when one did come up on ebay they were still asking big bucks for it. But I picked up a DVR-540H locally for $70AU. I'd found service manuals for quite a few pioneer DVR's online and worked out that this one uses an NEC chip (single chip for all video processing including 3D Y/C separation) so I was hoping for more like R7/X0 performance in that area. It has adjustments like the R7 has too, which I don't think the Panasonics do. Also as far as I know all the local Panasonics are PAL only whereas the Pioneers are PAL/NTSC.

It certainly made the composite output from the S9 look much more like the S-video out, just without such severe artefacts. There were some things I didn't like, mostly a loss of detail/sharpness compared to it's s-video out. Whether that is due to an inferior composite out on the S9 compared to the X9, fudoh was exaggerating, or the LX70 uses a better filter than the 540H I don't know yet. If anyone has a service manual for the LX70 (I couldn't find it freely online and wasn't curious enough to pay for it yet) then at least I could answer that part of the question. I do actually already have an X9 on the way from Japan, it should be here next week, so then I will be able asses the other part of that question somewhat.

I'll let you know how that goes.


Last edited by audioboyz1973 on 19 Oct 2017, 16:58, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 05:59 
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I have both x9 and x0, both have good comb filters with different flaws. I am using a lumagen radiance 2144, it has the best comb filter I have seen to date. I have 2 Crystalio IIs and had others before.

I started out with a cld-97 then x0, so I never felt the need for s9 or r7g. These two are the players I am not familiar with. Also I went from dvdo vp30 to Crystalio II before duo and edge was released. So those two I don't have experience either(although I owned an edge for a very brief while)

In my opinion red laser has no effect in video quality. Cld-97 is a better player than x9. Muse discs are nice, a bit difficult to come by and expensive. Fudoh is a good friend and his assessments are spot on. He is picky like me. He likes the aggressive scaling of dvdo and wants to deal with ld noise in the comb filter. I like a good comb filter too but I have since realized luma and chroma can't be perfectly separated at all. So i like the lumagens no ringing scaling which doesn't amplfy the ld noise like other scalars.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 07:38 
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Thank you for your insights and information

Looking quickly online the 2124 (same thing without 4K) would probably be over $4000au and the 2144 or Crystalio more, so kind of out of my league really (until that lotto win I have planned happens!!). I managed to get the Duo second hand in Australia for $750au and it doubles nicely as a switcher for my old pre hdmi AV-A1SE, and the dual output is really handy with a projector.

I've come to that conclusion about separation too. Some filters are definitely better than others but there's always some level of compromise between different factors and different people prefer different things.

I have the YNR turned off on the player. On the S9 at least it introduced its own artefacts if too high and I find it reduces detail. I prefer to accept the noise rather than reduce it at the expense of detail/sharpness. Actually I have the enhancement pushed up a little (just a little) on the Duo, whereas I read some prefer to back it off a bit. On that I think I fit in the same camp as fudoh then. I've a little bit of CNR applied and the 3DYC was off on the S9, low on the R7G (2 bars of 8 for now).

On your comment on noise floor re the H9 I would say that's one area the S9 was a little better than the R7G. Most of the time it's actually not very noticeable, but I did play an episode of ST:TNG last night and it was really noticeable on those red uniforms. Not sure what it is about those discs but they seem capable of showing up the worst aspects of a player. They smeared the worst on the S9 and no matter how high I cranked the colour with the CLD-925 they always looked dull. Who knows; if I sell the S9 it may yet go towards a H9.

It's nicely reassuring to hear your comments on fudoh's assessment and 'pickyness'. It's always a bit hard to know how much faith to put in online comments when you don't have a sense of the persons preferences etc. This reassures me that I will be able to find a solution to my issues with the S9/X9 filter that I'll be happy with if he could.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 07:58 
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audioboyz1973 wrote:
or the LX70 uses a better filter than the 540H I don't know yet.

Don't know if the 540H is better but I did have a DVR-LX70H for almost a year. The comb filter is pretty much the only thing interesting about that unit imo. It performs rather nicely and handles rainbowing very well but the NEC chip in the R7G is a small step ahead to me. Not a big deal though, and feeding the DVR with a low noise player through composite for Y/C separation and setting the output to 480i in order to avoid deinterlacing and scaling from the unit. The Faroudja Genesis chip isn't very exciting due to soft deinterlacing and high amount of CUE. I think most late Pioneer DVRs performs similar with composite sources but I'm not sure.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 20:20 
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I had to dig up some old posts (like 2003), below information was confirmed by Pioneer Japan (by Nicholas Santini).

1st generation:
CLD-HF7G, CLD-HF9G > NEC chip #0
HLD-X0 > NEC chip #1

2nd generation:
HLD-X9, LD-S9 > Mitsubishi chip

3rd generation:
DVL-H9, CLD-R7G > NEC chip #7

A few notes:
-CLD-99 in the US is similar to CLD-HF9G therefore uses the same NEC chip #0
-HLD-X0, EAD Theater Vision and Faroudja LD-1000 ( EAD clone) use NEC chip #1
-There has been talk in the past that NEC chip #1 is revised version of #0, their capabilities appear similar.
-These listed players were the only LD players equipped with 3D comb filters, all others are 2D only.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 21:01 
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From my experience with these various players and their comb filters, my conclusion is as follows;

Mitsubishi chip:
- provides visible improvement in colors and sharpness.
- correctly switches to 2D when motion is detected and motion detection is fast/accurate. Motion can be limited to a part of the screen, 3D is still applied in static parts.
- produces artifacts such as dot crawl and rain bowing which means, it incorrectly mixes 2D and 3D in areas. These artifacts are present, even in the lowest settings.
- When 3D is disabled, its 2D comb filter is very stable.
- Noise reduction produces artifacts and loss of detail.

NEC chip #1:
- provides visible improvement in colors and sharpness, perhaps not as pronounced as the Mitsubishi.
- Motion detection and switch to 2D isn't as accurate/fast. Often causes breaks/distortion due to incorrectly applied 3D filtering on motion (even in lowest settings)
- Excellent with Dot Crawl, even better than the TI TVP5160 chip in Crystalio II, only matched by Analog Devices ADV7800 chip in Lumagen Radiance 2144/2124.
- Rain bowing is present in test material but not so pronounced in real world material.
- Noise reduction is subtle but artifact free. X0 has more noise reduction settings than the rest however the extra settings cause loss of detail.
- It is very stable in 2D, artifact free but less resolution.

Other notes:
- Crystalio II (C2) and X9 can be made very sharp and detailed but artifacts are amplified. C2 can be made near artifact free but then not as sharp, dot crawl can be reduced but not completely removed. X9 has dot crawl reduced only if 3D is disabled.
- Lumagen 2144/2124 isn't as sharp as C2 but free of dot crawl. Colors are as powerful as C2 and X9 but without rain bowing in real material. ADV7800 chip is very fast and correctly recognizes motion, never breaks/distorted. Jim from Lumagen also confirmed they considered TVP5160 (They had this in their older HDQ model) but ADV7800 bested it in every test they made.

R7G and H9 uses NEC chip #7 which I am not familiar with. #1 already gets a lot of things right like dot crawl and noise reduction. If they improved on motion detection and switching speed then it is a very good 3D comb filter. R7G is based on a 400 series machine which is known to have more noise. H9 is at least based on 600 series which should have less noise without any processing.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 21:07 
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substance wrote:
R7G is based on a 400 series machine which is known to have more noise.

It's actually a CLD-59 but with different comb filter. Similar to the CLD-D604 and CLD-D406 in aspects of S/N ratio.

Also, isn't the CLD-99 identical to the CLD-HF9G other than lack of LD-G decoder?
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 21:47 
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The 504 (from which the 59 and 604 are based) is the early/first version of the last CLD generation - there are a couple of parts changes (like the spindle motor and some plastic bits) between the 504 and the x05/6's, and there are a few minor changes (like the revised M-Holder seen in DVL's) after the 406/606.

The R7G is post-406. The closest US model at a low-level is probably the Karaoke CLD-V880 and possibly late-production CLD-V5000's (504-based) if they rolled in the mech changes - there have been December 2001 labeled units on eBay.

There is no analog/low-level difference at all between the 604/606 and their parent models. The 606 SM is a short addendum to the 406's with comb filter board schematics. edit: however, the power supply is different and that may have lower noise.

The DVL's are hybrids of the last-gen CLD and the 704 - they have the 703/4/99-style turn mechanism, and the non-karaoke NTSC models before the 909 also got the noise reduction chip. But unlike the 703/4, the composite output is recombined S-Video from the comb filter (which makes the H9 comb filter a bigger improvement)


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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 22:20 
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Which player is the fastest turning?
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 11 Sep 2015, 22:43 
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alpha, gamma, epsilon.
the R7G had Epsilon and was the fastest that Pioneer made, about 7 seconds.
i'm sure other players had that same turn mech.

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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 12 Sep 2015, 09:29 
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That's a great summary of 3D Comb filters and the players they're found in substance.

substance wrote:

Mitsubishi chip:
- provides visible improvement in colors and sharpness.
- correctly switches to 2D when motion is detected and motion detection is fast/accurate. Motion can be limited to a part of the screen, 3D is still applied in static parts.
- produces artifacts such as dot crawl and rain bowing which means, it incorrectly mixes 2D and 3D in areas. These artifacts are present, even in the lowest settings.
- When 3D is disabled, its 2D comb filter is very stable.
- Noise reduction produces artifacts and loss of detail.

X9 has dot crawl reduced only if 3D is disabled.


My experience with the Mitsubishi chip in the S9 is mostly the same but there seems to be a difference in the artefacts I saw and the settings they happened with.

With the 3D on at even the lowest setting the main issue I saw was a checker-board sort of pattern/distortion that would occur over the whole area of the picture (rather than just edges) where there was motion, not with all motion, some would set it off others wouldn't. Fifth Element was particularly bad for it, for example the movement of the robot arms in the machine that builds leelu. In the discussion I linked to above there is a screen capture from Toy Story (Mr Potato Head) showing it in a comparison of the X9/X0.

I only noticed dot crawl (as in like a scrolling pattern on certain edges) when the filter was set to the off position in the menu. For example in the same scene from fifth element there's a yellow fluid in a tank on that machine; with 3D on the edges were nice and clean, but with it off there was a bit of that scrolling effect. Often it wasn't too bad with most material but I noticed that in Mars Attacks many scenes were really bad for it. Maybe I'm using the wrong terminology here but that seems to be the opposite of what you saw with the X9. That's what I found frustrating; turning the 3D on or off led to one artefact or the other, which was better or worse dependant on the material.

So far the filter in the R7G is much more agreeable to me. I've just left it set at 2 bars and not tinkered much yet but at that setting the robot arms are fine and Mars Attacks shows only the slightest hint of what I'm calling dot crawl from time to time. Occasionally some of that dot crawl is more pronounced/obvious but it tends to be infrequent and doesn't become overly obtrusive in the picture.

I think it's slightly better with colour and sharpness than the Mitsubishi in the S9.


Last edited by audioboyz1973 on 11 Jan 2017, 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 13 Sep 2015, 10:00 
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Well after another afternoon/evening of watching some shows and a movie, and a little time adjusting the setting, I really am liking this filter. It's not perfect of course but as Substance points out separating the Y/C never will be.

To add a bit to the description above of the artefacts I am seeing, the checker-boarding (fifth element being my 'go to' disc to check it) tends to occur where there's fast motion and happens over the whole part of the picture where that motion is. So the whole area the robot arms are sweeping over in fifth element, or when Luke Perry's character pulls out the bottle of 'grappa' from the bag in the opening sequence, over the whole label of the bottle. The checker-board pattern itself appears stationary.

The dot crawl mostly shows along edges/transitions. It tends to show on stationary or slow moving things and the artefact itself appears to shimmer/scroll/crawl. I first noticed Mars Attacks really highlighted it with the Mitsubishi/S9 and 3D set to off. For example on the outside shot of the sphinx head at the start of the first casino scene, and then on Byron's headwear inside.

I was a bit timid setting the 3D too high at first based on experience with the Mitsubishi so started with it low - on 2 bars. With that absolutely no checker boarding on fifth element and mostly dot crawl on Mars Attacks was minimal. One thing I've noticed to be a bit of a torture test for dot crawl is the deflector dish on the good old Enterprise-D. On this setting it still shimmered like crazy. So while playing a scene of the Enterprise slowly crossing the screen I turned the 3D setting up to maximum. As I did that the shimmer reduced until right near maximum it was gone and the image was stable as. Of course now going back to fifth element the checker-board was back - but not as bad as with the Mitsubishi at the lowest setting on the S9.

A bit of to and fro and somewhere around six bars seems to be about the best compromise so far for my eyes and reproduction chain. A little motion still around the deflector, checker-boarding virtually non-existent on fifth element. Interestingly with Byron's headgear the dot crawl that had been all over it was gone, though now, just on the top when he turns his head there was some checker-boarding. It's very momentary though and no where near as distracting as the whole thing crawling and shimmering. I watched bits and pieces of a few different things on this setting and was happy with the results.

So the way adjustment of the chip is set up on the R7G seems to allow a very useful/usable range within which I'm sure most people could find a balance of compromise they could be happy with. With the Mitsubishi on the S9 from off to just the first bar seems to leap to to extremes where one (off) eliminates checker-boarding but can suffer bad dot crawl and then even the lowest setting eliminates dot crawl but a the cost of bad checker-boarding at times. Whether that's a weakness of the chip itself or perhaps just the implementation I don't know. The sharpness and colour of the NEC #7 chip are at least as good as the Mitsubishi, perhaps even a little better but it's hard to be sure with different players when I can't really do a direct A/B comparison. It will be interesting to see if the Mitsubishi chip performs any differently in the X9. And thanks to the suggestion Substance made I think the H9 is going to end up on my wishlist. Based on my experience now with the R7G and what Substance has said, it might be the best player for my taste without going to the lengths of the X0.
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 14 Sep 2015, 10:33 
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Hope you will be happy with it and congratulations with the purchase.

I was recently bidding on the same player model in an auction at eBay, but lost the auction by $5. - I didn't try hard enough, I guess. :lol:
I'm curious if somebody at this forum were involved in the same auction. :think:
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 Post subject: Re: CLD-R7G Arrived!
PostPosted: 23 Sep 2015, 15:29 
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talking about 3d y/c-filters, i'm wondering what kind of filter is used in my Pioneer kuro KRP-500M TV, since its late 2000 and should be a "a lot" better than the ones used back in the days.
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