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 Post subject: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 23:27 
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Just wondering since at some point I'd either like to service or replace my still soldiering on 702. With a LX900 or D704, is there much visible improvement? Ever since getting my hdcrt xbr960, LDs have become noisy and unwatchable to the point of making me want to build a cart to use my old 4:3 480i Sony CRT again just for them.
My DVL-700 has less noise in the image than the 702, and of course the ac3 rf out. But the DVNR is so prevalent that I never use it other than testing ac3 tracks.

With the absurdly high cost of players on ebay, little guarantee they work right or will be shipped well, and the local avenues practically nil, I've never been able to justify shelling out several hundred dollars for what may or may not be much improvement.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 12 Nov 2015, 23:47 
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I've seen you mentioning your XBR960 issues. I have one and I love it. Noise with my CLD-99 is nearly nonexistent unless the disc is just not very good. What are your settings like with all the weird Sony functions? I assume you've calibrated it with VE or something.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 01:34 
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It definitely gets better than a 702 but not hugely better. I would only upgrade to an LX-900, CLD-97, or LD-S2 for US players (in order of improvement). 704 is noisy but sharp. 99 is 704 with decent comb filter (filter in xbr960 is better). I actually like the CLD-3080 quite a bit. It's essentially a CLD-95 that can be had for a fraction of the price.

FWIW, I've owned an XBR-960 and preferred watching LD on a 4:3 SD CRT. I'm stupid picky about scaling artifacts though.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 04:51 
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If you are going to spend money don't bother wasting it on an LX900
there is a lot of hype about that player but it's not really worth it, keep your money and spend it on a CLD-97 or 95 or higher end.
but if you aren't happy with a 702 right now you may never be happy, unless you adjust your TV to make it look better.

Good luck.

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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 05:55 
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Behond 702, there is only a handful of choices and each step up in picture quality is an exponential increase in price(this might actually help your selection). It goes like this,

703/704/79/99/S9 -> 900U -> X9 -> 95/97 ( maybe 3080) -> S2 -> X0

Also R7G and H9 would be somewhere between 703 and X9 if you use its s-video. The above rank is for their composite output. I would go for a 97 as its the best price per performance, nowadays you can find one under $300.

For scaling, look for lumagen hdq. It's comb filter is the TI tvp5160 (second best) and scaling is ringing free(very suitable for LD). Of course there is better but cost more than most good tvs.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 08:32 
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Thanks guys. I love my 702 and thought it great before the 960. I think it may be something in the TV's settings as there's certainly something weird under advanced video options. I have all NR off, settings done with VE and the DVD version. Each preset mode is wildly different even with the same settings, so I stick with the Pro mode and have it set properly on straight composite, component from DMR-ES25 and HDMI coming from the 25 as well which does 480p, 720p or 1080i.
They get progressively less noisy but the straight composite has the most color and warmth and of course the most noise. The 25's comb filter improves with the component 480i but I can't seem to get the unit's service menus to leave the black levels alone so it matches the composite original.
The set allows me to enlarge the image decently on these (but it looks awful), but the HD input lops everything off awfully.

I tried another handful of discs last night and got really disheartened at how even great transfers were noisy and washed out when they were great on the old set. Perhaps it's time for another go in Sony service menu hell to try and attempt tweaks to the comb filter and zoom settings if I can find them.

Or it may be that it just hates SD. I tried old retro consoles and it was just awful. Genesis, PSX and poor N64 being just horrid compared to my old set. But DVD via PS3, Blu and PS3 games are stunning, vivid and PHENOMENAL.

I guess I just wanted to make sure it wasn't my player before I went off the deep end.

Soooo...anyone know somewhere to get get a rolling cart for one of the bigger and heavier flat glass Sony 4:3 trinitrons? ;) I think I'll just have to roll it in front when I want to watch LDs or play old games.

I will post my tv settings when I get a chance.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 15:08 
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I'm confused. That's a lot of info. Did you calibrate the exact input you are currently using for LD with the LD version of VE?

This is a CRT, an old one, so it'll never be perfect. However LDs look phenomenal on mine. VE is a great starting point with only a few changes needed beyond that. Don't use too much brightness or contrast. I'd bet money that better settings are possible without using the service menu.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 17:39 
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Yes, I did the VE LD on all three inputs. The setting are near identical but come up slightly different. I also did another preset as VE on DVD (identical to the LD), and another preset with the settings I had made for HD and DVD.

What settings do you have if I may ask?
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 18:29 
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Currently I have:
Composite
Picture: 20
Brightness: 37
Color: 31
Sharpness: 20
Color Temp: Neutral.
Composite tweaked closer to DVD setting:Picture up to 25.

Component: Same levels with Picture at 25.
VE LD setting is Picture at 23, Brightness and Color each at 30, Sharpness at 15.


HDMI input:
VE LD run through dmr-es25 outputting 1080i:
P:14
B: 41
C: 31
S: 20
Neutral Color temp.

HDMI settings for PS3 games:
P 20, B 48, C 31, S 30, Neutral.

HDMI settings for BD/DVD:
P 25, B 37, C 31, S 20, Neutral. Calibrated to AVS patterns and tweaked slightly from there.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 13 Nov 2015, 22:49 
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I don't know about this particular tv but generally warm setting works better, comes closer to d65. I would also kill all sharpness.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2015, 01:25 
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I've heard that some TVs be that CRT, LCD/LED or Plasma, need sharpness so to speak because setting it to 0 on some sets artificially softens the image.

For DVD and LD on my 32" bedroom LCD display, I let my DVD player do the sharpening by setting it to 2, and for LD I let my DVDo iScan HD+ do the sharpening by setting it to 4. Sharpness on the display itself however is turned off.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2015, 02:25 
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alien wrote:
I've heard that some TVs be that CRT, LCD/LED or Plasma, need sharpness so to speak because setting it to 0 on some sets artificially softens the image.

I've seen TVs that do this, but it's generally very obvious. i.e. "0" is very soft and "1" looks normal. I can't remember how the 960 was in that regard. Also, I believe the warm setting on the 960 was a little too warm, but still closer than any of the other settings to 6500K.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2015, 03:50 
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You have velocity modulation turned off right?
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 14 Nov 2015, 05:09 
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alien wrote:
I've heard that some TVs be that CRT, LCD/LED or Plasma, need sharpness so to speak because setting it to 0 on some sets artificially softens the image.

To verify the correct sharpness level you can use test pattern for TVLs like this one for example. With artificially sharpened or softened picture you will see aliasing.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 16 Nov 2015, 19:10 
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I still don't think my settings are quite right because every tool is either for SD or led/plasma. Someone else reccomended I get digital video essentials and try it instead.
I will say that after much comparison and research it boils down to the quality of the source and the resolution being input. Apparently the 960 only does 480p and 1080i native and everything else is automatically scaled to either of those. Thus DVDs only look good upscaled via PS3, and old game systems are terrible.
After much testing again, with LD it depends on the disc itself. I just used two totally different ends of the spectrum in terms of content/transfer: Island of Lost Souls from the Universal double feature which is very soft focused and a bit hazy from the print used and then backed up with the THX letterboxed Goldeneye.
The worse or older the disc is, the worse it looks straight composite in. The better discs look far better straight composite. Component from the 25 seems to improve everything but it does mess with the color and black levels a bit and I can't seem to get that to stop. Finally the HDMI out from the 25 seems to not mess with the blacks and gives me three different looks depending on whether I use 480p, 720p or 1080i. After much back and forth I think 480p out is the best overall for PQ for all discs.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 17 Nov 2015, 03:53 
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Welcome to upscaling hell. What some people are just fine with, others will sink $1,000s trying to fix. I can't offer any advice personally but hopefully you can get to a point you're happy with. Good luck.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2015, 17:27 
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I'm going to assume the D702 is akin to the D701, which by the specs makes it closer to a D604/5/6. And a D604/5/6 is inherently a noisy player.

It can get better than that (like a D703/4, Elites S1, S2, 79, 95, 97, 99, Panasonic LX-900/Runco LJR, etc.) all depends on how much you want to spend.

I wouldn't go through ebay as player prices have seemingly gone to premium prices now. I usually scour craigslist at least once a week (in locations within reasonable driving distance for me--and mind you, I'm willing to drive 2-3 hours if necessary.) It does work as I've gotten extremely lucky picking up a Runco LJR-I, LJR-II, 2 D703's and a 97 off of there for fractions of what you would pay on Ebay.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2015, 18:43 
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Thanks guys. That figures from my thoughts and experiences. THe 702 has always seems a touch noisy but I've never found a better affordable unit. Mine won't do the auto flip nor will it eject CDs. I once had to tweak the Rf level to make a disc's audio not distorted and it will freak out halfway through a DTS title.
THat said the image is far better than my only good local pickup, a MIB dvl-700. THat one has no noise and perfect playback but the image is so smeary and processed that the fine detail of the 702 is all gone. Thus I only use it to demo ac3. I check local cl regularly but have never found anything else. It also has far less CLV smear so it becomes even more painful that the 700 has such heavy onboard DNR.
I've even thought about selling it to finance a new player but haven't wanted to part with such a perfect backup machine.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2015, 19:08 
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If you were to get a new player, what's your budget? If you want to get a bargain, some of the late 80's early 90's players are actually quite affordable and underrated. They have inherently lower noise levels because they don't have a heavy reliance on digital processing. CLD-3030, 3070, or 3080 might be good choices. They also have pretty low (some will say non-existent but I will say low :D) CLV smear.
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 Post subject: Re: Does it get much better than a CLD-D702?
PostPosted: 18 Nov 2015, 20:36 
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Practically as little as possible. ;) I'd at least like something as good in PQ as the 702. Digital audio is a must since it's my favorite part of the format. Ac3 isn't because so few discs have them and if I want to try one , I just use my 700. Side flips are okay by me, IMO it's just like reel changes and nothing is worse than waiting for my screwy 702 to hit black so I can jump up super fast a run to hit eject before the auto-flip jams and I have to unplug and reset.
So what would you suggest? I've searched in vain for a nice 900 and of course the 704s are ridiculously overpriced.
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