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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2016, 23:48 
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Hi,

For signofzeta:
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You wouldn't need $100M USD, which is good because you'd never get 4 million people to kickstart a revival of something that barely had that many users back when it was the highest quality format on Earth.


Funding example, money is nothing, people are the world. The world is what the people want to do with it.

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There is no relationship between records and LDs other than the 12" jackets. Both the players and the discs themselves are astronomically more complex for LD.


So what ?

Quote:
Also, while sales of vinyl are booming, consider that they'd still don't touch what iTunes is moving, let alone where they were when it was the highest quality format on earth. Also consider that good TTs are *still* hard to find despite this boom leading me to think it's not as much of a boom as people say it is.


Good TT hard to find. Sorry i disagree. The market is very large, they have ones for DJ, consumer, and audiophile. in fact i pretty sure that you can find about 20 different models from at least 5 different brand. Do you want more ?
but vinyl is not the subject here.

Rgds,
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2016, 23:50 
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Hi rein-o,

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I think my wife read in the times that vinyl sales account for 5% of all music sales, it went up from 10 years ago.....


So what, and out of subject.

Rgds,
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 27 Sep 2016, 23:58 
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Hi happycube,

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LD started as an analog media, but gained more and more digital properties as it went on (CD audio, then D2 digital mastering and digital TBC) The last common US-market player without digital bits aside from computer control was the LD-V2200 in ~1989.


So what ?

Quote:
And 64GB microSD cards which can easily hold an hour at the uncompressed digital audio+video bitrates used by mastering+later players are getting damn close to the inflation-adjusted cost of a CLV disk side in the late 1990's - probably lower once you factor in shipping...

... but such a card was pure science fiction (even if authors thought of it) back in 1978 when Discovision first came out.


The last test was about 36GB for one hour in 3xx*2xx.
So you're right it should be possible to have an hour of LD on 64Giga but we will start to 2hours.
2*64=128Go*10 > 1 Tera octect
So what , you will stock you uncompressed films on 10 hdd and so on. I don't think it's realistic. I don't even mention the very user firendly interfaces that you have now with computer...

Quote:
Optical media as a whole is nearer it's end than it's beginning - for Joe Sixpack streaming is winning. By looking at LD, we can celebrate it's beginnings and long history, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't look forward, either


Yep, totaly right, nes move is you have nothing, we have all, and we can do what you want you will be our slaves.
That's also why, i think it is good to have optical support. for those who want to be free and unconnected...

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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 00:53 
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Hi nissling,

Would like to tell you thanks, you helped me correcting some mistake.
I hope, you will like to corrections.
Will do some research about your last point. (color reduction in the signal)
But i fear the same things as for the vinyl, the stereo seperation on the vinyl isn't good because of mix of signal.
As bright is mixed with colour in the laserdisc; signal separation should be imperfect, but how it is bad, i don't know.
Will search...

Rgds,
PS: Even if you play in the the square garden, i"m pleased that you came playing a little in the round garden.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 01:41 
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Hi anonyme-x22,

I like to think guys like us are in the world of FEELING not SPECS.

Nissling is a typical outraged nerd who will tell you all day how good the specs are on Blu-rays. Yet most of them suck a** and I don't want to watch them. Why? Because it doesn't look, feel or sound like the movies should. When I watch a laserdisc I get the real feeling.

Film is ART not SPECS.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 02:07 
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Is there some website somewhere that is specifically responsible for making noobs think that LD is "uncompressed"? We get people here all the time repeating that lie.

LD is based on composite video and is therefore HUGELY compressed. That's why it looks like total crap compared to RGB. Not even half the information is there.

Personally, I would love to buy a few new LDs but you couldn't kickstart a laser POINTER with the amount of totally ridiculous new age pseudo science coming out of this guy's keyboard. No engineer is going to waste his time taking a year off to work on a project spearheaded by someone who believes in the healing powers of analog fairies.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 02:11 
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forper wrote:
Hi anonyme-x22,

I like to think guys like us are in the world of FEELING not SPECS.

Nissling is a typical outraged nerd who will tell you all day how good the specs are on Blu-rays. Yet most of them suck a** and I don't want to watch them. Why? Because it doesn't look, feel or sound like the movies should. When I watch a laserdisc I get the real feeling.

Film is ART not SPECS.


I'd be careful about calling people "outraged nerd" or whatever. Nobody here is normal. Not me, because I spend money on anime LDs like it was the 90s, and not you, a guy who thinks composite video is more evocative of "film" than MPEG4 and that Sony was amazingly great at making a LD players and discs. Even for an LD fan you are out there.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 03:20 
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Hi,

Quote:
is there some website somewhere that is specifically responsible for making noobs think that LD is "uncompressed"? We get people here all the time repeating that lie.

LD is based on composite video and is therefore HUGELY compressed. That's why it looks like total crap compared to RGB. Not even half the information is there.


So what, it's analog...

Quote:
Personally, I would love to buy a few new LDs but you couldn't kickstart a laser POINTER with the amount of totally ridiculous new age pseudo science coming out of this guy's keyboard. No engineer is going to waste his time taking a year off to work on a project spearheaded by someone who believes in the healing powers of analog fairies.


My too, why, and what if they want?

Rgds,
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 05:27 
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anonyme-x22 wrote:
So what, it's analog...

Your ignorance only shows how incompetent you are. It's all right to like Laserdisc but I have a hard time imagine why anyone sane guy here would insist on it being the pinnacle of human achievement. Just the fact that barely a fraction of the amount of LDs available are above average for the medium says a lot.

Today we've got the finest era of home video. I'm not going to say it was better before. TBH, being a videophile in the 80s and 90s must've sucked. Small expensive TVs, expensive players (regardless of format), expensive editions and only the most fortunate could afford Laserdiscs. Today there's no excuse for a videophile not to be into Blu-Rays.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 08:34 
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nissling wrote:
Today there's no excuse for a videophile not to be into Blu-Rays.


What about the excuse of most are mixed wrong, have bad mastering and over compensate in one form or another for problems that never existed on the, more often than not, definitive LD editions.

LD is the final, perfect home format, for purists by purists. Blu ray is usually cheaply produced junk in crappy blue plastic boxes for the masses.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 08:43 
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Why not take the best of all worlds, and enjoy every format for what it is?
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 08:51 
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forper wrote:
What about the excuse of most are mixed wrong, have bad mastering and over compensate in one form or another for problems that never existed on the, more often than not, definitive LD editions.

Except for the fact that nothing of what you've written is true. The ratio of good Blu-Rays is very high, especially in contrast to older formats. I still don't believe you've seen a mediocre Blu-Ray on a decent setup. Even the most mediocre, bland Blu-Ray will be light years ahead of the very best Laserdisc.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 08:55 
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100 Mln$ is crazy. You could buy an entire hollywood studio with a sum like that. Let's say you can have a small plant with 1.000.000$. Being optimistic you can find 1.000 people interested on this project willing to invest 1.000$ each.
Ok, we are ready to manufacture the discs we want.
Who is paying salary for the employees? Who is paying the bills, rent, taxes?
Who is ACTUALLY interested to print on laserdisc a new movie that will look worse than a DVD or Bluray?
Considering a minimum order has to be of 1.000 per title, how can you persuade at least 1.000 customers abou the title to press?
Just for example I buy ONLY Hard rock/Metal mostly the ones never edited on DVD or Bluray.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 12:49 
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nissling wrote:
forper wrote:
What about the excuse of most are mixed wrong, have bad mastering and over compensate in one form or another for problems that never existed on the, more often than not, definitive LD editions.

Except for the fact that nothing of what you've written is true. The ratio of good Blu-Rays is very high, especially in contrast to older formats. I still don't believe you've seen a mediocre Blu-Ray on a decent setup. Even the most mediocre, bland Blu-Ray will be light years ahead of the very best Laserdisc.


I have and I agree to disagree with your assessment of Bastard-Ray.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 13:25 
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Wiki tells us there were 16.8 million LD players sold worldwide over the formats life.
Now my guess is a big chunk of those machines are no longer operational.
I also suspect most active LD collectors own multiple machines or will aim to if they plan to retain their collections for any length of time.

This means the actual number of active collectors worldwide is actually quite small these days.
Perhaps 10,000 worldwide if even that. That's probably very optimistic.

Any attempt to get non LD collectors to fund this scheme simply wont work as they have no interest.
Look - today you can't even get people to fund a $25 blu-ray release without some people moaning it is too expensive still or they want the download for free.
Try selling them a format like Laserdisc that only a small number of people have players for and it wont happen.

So my question is how exactly are you going to raise the funds?
It's a very simple question but one that needs a clear answer before this is ever going to happen.

Are you thinking of getting some big company sponsors onboard, maybe a few hundred millionaire celebrities, a social media campaign that goes viral?......because that's what its gonna take.

Count me in by the way!! :thumbup: as nothing would make me happier than to see a new Saxon release on laserdisc in 2016 or 2017 if the factory doesn't open till then!! :D
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 13:37 
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Hi,

Keep on figthing :)

for forper:

Quote:
What about the excuse of most are mixed wrong, have bad mastering and over compensate in one form or another for problems that never existed on the, more often than not, definitive LD editions.

LD is the final, perfect home format, for purists by purists. Blu ray is usually cheaply produced junk in crappy blue plastic boxes for the masses.


Totally true.
Quality is what i'm seeking (durability, writting normalisation, well finished product, with real artworks)
Did you ever seen a movie named mommy (2014). You have a format which is the smartphone display format.
Like the movie was filmed with a smartphone! And even if this was not enougth the display format goes from smartphone format to 16:9 format dynamically.
Crimson peak, which is an horror movie, has no even one good colour flesh, no blue, only yellow , green, cold like the alaska.
But we all knowing this so...

For godzilla-2000:
Quote:
Why not take the best of all worlds, and enjoy every format for what it is?


Right again, the perfect world is vhs,laserdisc, 8-16-35mm and so on. But only the money count for these younger.
They prefer to kill us, rather then giving us 1% of the market for any king of optical support, moreover, they don't want other people to thinks differently than what they stated. So we need to concentrate on very little part of the available devices. In analog, the most competitive device is the laserdisc unfortunately.

For mikematijevic:

Quote:
100 Mln$ is crazy. You could buy an entire hollywood studio with a sum like that. Let's say you can have a small plant with 1.000.000$. Being optimistic you can find 1.000 people interested on this project willing to invest 1.000$ each.
Ok, we are ready to manufacture the discs we want.
Who is paying salary for the employees? Who is paying the bills, rent, taxes?
Who is ACTUALLY interested to print on laserdisc a new movie that will look worse than a DVD or Bluray?
Considering a minimum order has to be of 1.000 per title, how can you persuade at least 1.000 customers abou the title to press?
Just for example I buy ONLY Hard rock/Metal mostly the ones never edited on DVD or Bluray.


Yep, i said the funding example what an estimated idea, the worth one. I think more optimistic than you, but thinking worth, give the best chances to success. It should even cost less that what you think...

You're funding the plant, not manage it, or perhaps you want to do it, i will certainly need manager... But of course, today there will be a PDG for this plant and so on, so don't bother with that it's not your job for now.

I switch a little the order for the questions because on is for all :)

I don't have to persuade people, they're persuaded by being here, their hope unfortunately is fading away because of the today society issue as the digital age, the misinformation campaign , people who don't know what they're simply doing, buying, telling. But we will need to persuade the younger for the global victory, and for this i count on the new laserdisc software and hardware release.
For the title, why bother, imagine 1000 laserdisc per week, what you want can be pressed. But for the first one, we all together will decide what,how, etc... (Ex: for me it's bridge of spy in FR/En with analog track version with full sized frame for standard/Hi-vision ones)

We are figthing, but a lot are waiting...

For all,

Did you know that there is a compagny which is pressing vinyl with computer music on them?
For about 1 millions people......
So what is it laserdisc for 1 millions people with content who will interest more than these guys who are buying digital music on analog support ?

for Absolute fan

Quote:
Any attempt to get non LD collectors to fund this scheme simply wont work as they have no interest.


What is the interest of the younger who are buying vinyl today ? couldn't it be the same for the laserdisc ?

Quote:
Look - today you can't even get people to fund a $25 blu-ray release without some people moaning it is too expensive still or they want the download for free.

Normal, nether will i paid by pleasure for these ...., rather buying all the old LD collection because love to see again and again a good film with care for the support and artwork.
Today motion footage quality is as good as the support who old them. Why are you suprised that no one want to buy a box with no soul inside, only the left over of robot for making them even the mastering stages. Vinyl is more attrative for the younger because of the human lot of works done on it. So will be with the laserdisc!

Quote:
So my question is how exactly are you going to raise the funds?


Simple as the question, when the specifications will be done, and we have all the needed informations, kickstarter campaign.

Quote:
Are you thinking of getting some big company sponsors onboard, maybe a few hundred millionaire celebrities, a social media campaign that goes viral?......because that's what its gonna take.


Of course, it will be good to have them, but no, as i told you the funding should be so little in fact that our money should do the trick for the moment. I count on them for the second part of the project.

Do you think it cost a human to build a pressing machine even if it is for pressing 78RPM...

Beside all these nosenses technicals considerations because it still want to remember you that the hi-vision can display 11xxVL not compressed even if the signal are mixed an compressed by color electricaly, the picture data are not compressed on the support, 1 turn for one picture, do you imagine that image on blueray and other digital material can have up to 300 picture between a full one and that's what is important, all the drawing, the little dust on the clothe of the people who wear it is retained perhaps with mixed and compressed electrical signal but picture by picture there is all the informations, so why bothering of the quality because she's here.

Will try to capture with an HD camera the output of what i see, because i do have the blues..t as the LD, and even with these 1xxx*1xxxx or resolutions, the mastering only is sufficient for me to get the nausea when i'm switching from a good old film from my LD to an new one in bluebastardray. Because yes, as all the people who haven't the choice, i watch them, but i switch 1 LD and 1 HD in the same day to be sure that i won't regret putting to the trash all these one. Because yes that's what i'm doing, watch the film, result are often bad, so blueray to thrash, even i use streaming. So don't you understant that if we don't work on a support that will keep it alive, the future is virtualy, paid, done for nothing controled data and each time you by a blue lighted a** ray, you are giving 20 buck, because yes a blue ray cost maximun 3$ to manufacture to the people who will left to you only an iphone to watch there s... like in wall-E... in a 6 inch screen with a resolution of 10000*10000, and those younger would applause this because they will be conditionned to believe that 10000 because it's greater than 1000 give better results!

Today i bought an used copy of amadeus in LD, which i own in blueray, dvd, and divx, which one you think i'm going to display to all my friend, the LD one because all the other were to trash, because of inexistent value in them, and also, because i spent my money with pleasure when i bought the amadeus copy on LD, not the case for the other format. Want to help, do the same things. You don't need to trash these blue ray as i do even if there value is about 3$...

Next month will by the starwars one, and so on, even if we don't succeed in creating the new ones, keeping the old ones alive is the start of the victory. And for those who fears the death of the devices, i managed to repair one which has the head totaly destroyed with clay and nails, so i think's it's telling how there machines can be eternal.
That's also why this is darn good the LD, every thing inside could be replaced, as this simple discrete integrated components, whose all men can bought at an electronical places not perhaps the video cd part, but who care.

For me the laserdisc is the same as the vinyl eternal, with the feeling that a lot of improvement can still be done with the laserdisc, which isn't the case for the vinyl because of the well done researchs on this technology. Laserdisc hasn't got the time to show all it's potential due to numeric age starting in the 90's.

Also, got in touch with MPO, one of the last Ld producing Plant, Disney for the bridge spy rights...
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 16:06 
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I don't know if laserdisc has the potential to be tecnically as good as a Bluray but you are overrating the ability to change a whole Society that gives no value
to art and artists.
Most people have not time or interest to enjoy FOR FREE the art that surrounds them, ancient buildings, museums, pieces of history and you would change their minds to pay "in order to enjoy an old format that would look worse than Bluray but has great sleeve"...all with just a with a campaign?
Are you still living in pre-Napster era?

Education to art starts from school not with fundraising campaigns.

There are absolutely zero chances that an idea like that would work because no one is willing to invest in a dead format that has huge technical limitations.
And your comparision with Vinyl revival has nothing to do with laserdisc...Vinyl has still a potential for audiophiles, those who love dynamics in music and are against the loudness war.

Why should someones buy a new movie in a big double laserdisc when he can have it on bluray? Because of the artwork?
How can you explain to younger generations living this digital era that what counts is the whole packaging (the media, the sleeve, the insert) and not just the final output (the movie of the music)?

Not to mention that it would be economically a suicide because you could press the same title on DVD or Bluray with a 1/100 investment.
You can print 50 copies pf your own DVD or CD for a few bucks per copy. Then try to print 50 copies of the same title on LP and let me know how much does it cost...given for granted that you find someone who is willing to press JUST 50 copies.

The only chance to see a new title on laserdisc again is a small plant, owned and run by a circle of rich guys that would offer a limited run of certain titles or press again some cancelled to die-hard fans and even in this case I can't see a big market because the most wanted title has a potential of 20/30/50 buyers, not thousands.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 17:05 
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Technically vinyls have no pros when it comes to dynamic range compared to CDs. Even Mp3 files can be vastly superior in this matter. However, a master that is compressed to its limit will most likely not be playable on a consumer TT which prevents the audio from being completely slaughtered on vinyl. Although you will most likely not find more than a handful of LPs released in the past five years that are sourced from a different master than the CD counterpart.
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 18:20 
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Hi,

Quote:
I don't know if laserdisc has the potential to be tecnically as good as a Bluray but you are overrating the ability to change a whole Society that gives no value
to art and artists.


and

Quote:
There are absolutely zero chances that an idea like that would work because no one is willing to invest in a dead format that has huge technical limitations.
And your comparision with Vinyl revival has nothing to do with laserdisc...Vinyl has still a potential for audiophiles, those who love dynamics in music and are against the loudness war.


contradictory.

Quote:
The only chance to see a new title on laserdisc again is a small plant, owned and run by a circle of rich guys that would offer a limited run of certain titles or press again some cancelled to die-hard fans and even in this case I can't see a big market because the most wanted title has a potential of 20/30/50 buyers, not thousands.


It's only a point of view. For me it's more than 20/30/50 , but 100000/2/3
Small plants are no bad!

Quote:
Not to mention that it would be economically a suicide because you could press the same title on DVD or Bluray with a 1/100 investment.
You can print 50 copies pf your own DVD or CD for a few bucks per copy. Then try to print 50 copies of the same title on LP and let me know how much does it cost...given for granted that you find someone who is willing to press JUST 50 copies.


You're right, and so what, we aren't here to do money, i thinks a lots of guy here are thinking only with money.
We aren't here to do money, +250% by years, technology investement, and so on.
We are loving a support and want to keep it alive, even for 1 millions people. Everything has it's place in the world.

I you come here to tell us that:
We won't do a lot of benefice. We don't care!
We won't be able to be better than the blueray. We don't care.
We won't be able to have a big market. We don't care.

You only will be able to press a few titles in littles quantities per years for passionate people, and perhaps doing the most advanced laserdisc device by including the AC3 demodulator, and the hi-vision demodulator and a hdmi output for the less furnished of us. That all we want!

Rgds,
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 Post subject: Re: Project Laserdisc reawakening
PostPosted: 28 Sep 2016, 19:47 
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Hi,

Tried digital capture with HD camera.
And what i thougth come to true:
Result awfull. Color loss, Shapness loss, Brigthness loss, interlacement showing (30FPS camera)
Even with 2K resolution, image is bader than the LD with natural eye view!
But nothing new here. We all known this...
Will try photo...

Rgds,
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