It is currently 22 Oct 2019, 04:34




 Page 1 of 8 [ 157 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 01:42 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 19:25
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time
How do I set up Dolby Surround sound on that Laser Disc player? My equipment is just that LX-200PX, and a Turtle Beach X41 Dolby 5.1 Headphone device. Can a Toslink cable go straight into the x41 and the headphones sound in surround? Which sound settings should I select to have Dolby 5.1 in the X41s? I have a d/a/cx Digital/Analog button, and an L/R/Stereo button on the remote. Do I need an additional decoder for this to work?

Also, can I have a list of a good movie which shows off directional sound? I can test it out.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 02:45 
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: 07 Aug 2002, 23:37
Posts: 2517
Location: Tokyo
Has thanked: 84 times
Been thanked: 174 times
tripletopper wrote:
How do I set up Dolby Surround sound on that Laser Disc player?


Depends on what you call "Surround".

If it's Dolby Surround, then just output the Digital Tracks from your player over Toslink or Coax and set your system to "Prologic".

tripletopper wrote:
Do I need an additional decoder for this to work?


If you are referring to AC3 (Dolby Digital 5.1) then you will need buy an AC3RF demodulator to first decode the signal from Analog to Digital before reaching your audio system

=> See: Receivers and other equipments that support AC-3RF

Julien
_________________
LDDb on Facebook!
HLD-X9 | LG-1 | RFD-1 | MSC-4000 | Lumagen 2144
DHS-8.8 | Oppo 205 | SL-1200G
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 05:30 
Confirmed Padawan
Confirmed Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3778
Location: United States
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 215 times
Dolby Surround, Dolby Digital and DTS are all different types of “surround” found on LD but none of these were designed for headphone uses. Any “surround” from headphones is a hack above and beyond home theater standards. Putting “5.1 in my headphones” is impossible, it makes no sense.

The players put out stereo. Your headphones put out stereo. Just plug the headphones into your player. You’ll get loads of imaging that way from any high budget action movie. T2, for example.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 19:14 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 19:25
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time
I understand that "headphone surround" is a 2 track soundtrack mixed by my Turtle Beach, which takes a Dolby 5.1 soundtrack via Toslink, and uses the fact that it assumes you're listening via headphones, and then converts it to a sound pattern that uses echo and reverb to make it sound in surround, but it only works if you're listening in headphones. A competitor was Q Sound, but that assumes a close up, centered, level play, and was used in Capcom Arcade games, but that didn't translate well to home.

A consequence of that is you can record a headphone mixed sound on a DVD-R and if you're listening via headphone, it sounds right. I'll admit it sounds like garbage through normal stereo TV speakers, or a true external surround speaker set but if you label "Listen through headphones only," then you can get surround sound on a 2-track DVD recorder or a Video Game footage recorder like my Hauppauge Rocket. Of course, for HDMI you have to buy an Audio embedder which ignores HMDI audio and uses post-coverted headphone sound as the independent input. This is if you can't find a recorder which records the encoded Dolby track on the DVD recorder.

So what you're saying is I'll get 2-dimensional surround (along a flat circle, with left, right, forward, and backward, and not a sphere, which includes high and low) if I put it in Pro-Logic Mode. And you're saying that for the 3-D 5.1 ac3 to work I need an AC3 demodulator.

I thought you just need a demodulator if transferring a ac3 sound to a surround sound box so it can individually route sound to the speakers? Since I'm by-passing that step, then the Toslink (maybe) should broadcast an encoded Dolby 5.1, and my X41 takes a native Dolby 5.1 soundtrack and coverts it to 2-track Dolby Headphone. And isn't a demodulator the same thing that's in Dolby and DTS surround sound decoders that are currently available today? Or is this specific to Laser Disc?

Also do I have to use particular setting on the d/a button and the L/R/Stereo button?

P.S. I didn't see the edit button when editing my first post into the second, so I thought the polite thing to make it look like I'm not intentionally double posting was erasing the old one and making it just an X. Makes it easy for the mods to delete. I didn't know how to delete one-half of a double post.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 28 Nov 2017, 22:13 
Confirmed Padawan
Confirmed Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3778
Location: United States
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 215 times
You’re putting way too much thought into this. There is two channel mix on the disc already. You have headphones...literally plug one speaker to each channel. This is “stereo”, it works great, it’s been around for almost a century.

The whole point of “surround sound” is that the audience doesn’t need headphones. Surround sound uses multiple channels and multiple speakers to achieve a similar effect for a different situation, to fill the room. AC-3 and DTS are digital and descrete implementations of the same thing. It makes litteraly no sense whatsoever to chain a bunch of stuff together to turn AC-3 into stereo. There is already a stereo version on the disc and it’s higher quality. There is no point in taking a more descrete mix and using some chip to squash it back to two channels. Just uses the supervised two channel mix provided.

There are modes such as Dolby Headphone which attempt to unfold the Dolby Stereo into four tracks and then back into two using extra FX to expand the stage but they are, as I said, hacks. Sometimes they are great, sometimes not. Fun distractions. Overly marketed and underbuilt guitar pedal gimmicks, for the most part.

If you had two ears, two speakers, and the studio put a two channel mix on the disc then there is literally no more ideal connection than...just plugging your headhones into the player.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 02:20 
Jedi Master
Jedi Master
User avatar

Joined: 03 May 2004, 19:05
Posts: 5883
Location: United States
Has thanked: 106 times
Been thanked: 142 times
Not reading all of the above but I do feel that you are trying to get to highway speeds using a gas powered scooter.
While you may get some type of surround out of headphones they just weren't made for it and you are best off using the stereo option or getting the
amount of speakers/channels to make the
4.0
4.1
5.1
7.1 etc.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 14:30 
Jedi Initiate
Jedi Initiate
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2009, 18:05
Posts: 3047
Location: MA USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 49 times
You do need an rf demodulator. Toslink only has 2ch pcm and dts 5.1 output. Dolby 5.1 is output on the rf output which is analog modulated and your turtle won’t know what to do with it without a demodulator
_________________
Wanted
HD-VMD Discs
Hi-Vision/Muse Discs Only complete/mint!
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 17:07 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 19:25
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time
signofzeta wrote:
You’re putting way too much thought into this. There is two channel mix on the disc already. You have headphones...literally plug one speaker to each channel. This is “stereo”, it works great, it’s been around for almost a century.

The whole point of “surround sound” is that the audience doesn’t need headphones. Surround sound uses multiple channels and multiple speakers to achieve a similar effect for a different situation, to fill the room. AC-3 and DTS are digital and descrete implementations of the same thing. It makes litteraly no sense whatsoever to chain a bunch of stuff together to turn AC-3 into stereo. There is already a stereo version on the disc and it’s higher quality. There is no point in taking a more descrete mix and using some chip to squash it back to two channels. Just uses the supervised two channel mix provided.

There are modes such as Dolby Headphone which attempt to unfold the Dolby Stereo into four tracks and then back into two using extra FX to expand the stage but they are, as I said, hacks. Sometimes they are great, sometimes not. Fun distractions. Overly marketed and underbuilt guitar pedal gimmicks, for the most part.

If you had two ears, two speakers, and the studio put a two channel mix on the disc then there is literally no more ideal connection than...just plugging your headhones into the player.


I heard movies on "basic" 2 track stereo, and on "headphone encoded" 2 track sound. There IS a difference. You don't get the sense of high and low and forward and backward with a "pure stereo" soundtrack. Video games are the place where you'd notice it the most. I was able to beat the apple juice sensei boss on Sonic Lost World ONLY because of Dolby 5.1 I guess the test is to use regular headphones on the same boss and see if I can echolocate his shots with a "standard 2 track stereo" soundtrack.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 18:11 
Confirmed Padawan
Confirmed Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3778
Location: United States
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 215 times
Of course there is a difference. One is the soundtrack and one has been completely reproccessed by a $2 chip to pretend it’s something it physically can’t be.

Sega is not making a game that requires a muti channel setup to play. They just won’t (OK, maybe when Kenji Eno was still around.) %99 of Sega game players are running stereo speakers so close together they sound mono. I’m sure the sound is important but something that *required* the upgrade from Stereo to multichannel would be..hair splitting, a distinction to fine to ever be actually fun in-game. It would drive you nuts and almost nobody would be able to beat it. They’d have to patch the game or recalled it because there is no icon on the back of the box that says “must have dedicated home theater to clear”.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 20:51 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 19:25
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time
signofzeta wrote:
Of course there is a difference. One is the soundtrack and one has been completely reproccessed by a $2 chip to pretend it’s something it physically can’t be.

Sega is not making a game that requires a muti channel setup to play. They just won’t (OK, maybe when Kenji Eno was still around.) %99 of Sega game players are running stereo speakers so close together they sound mono. I’m sure the sound is important but something that *required* the upgrade from Stereo to multichannel would be..hair splitting, a distinction to fine to ever be actually fun in-game. It would drive you nuts and almost nobody would be able to beat it. They’d have to patch the game or recalled it because there is no icon on the back of the box that says “must have dedicated home theater to clear”.


I know it's a "your mileage may vary" situation and some games may have it more paramount than others, all I could say is I had a tough time defeating an unseen boss along the surface of a sphere, I couldn't figure out what he was doing. Some people might be able to beat it through trial and error, but I had a more accurate and innate reaction to the boss moving on the other side of the sphere that I couldn't see. I could tell both where he was and which way he was firing. It made the boss that much easier.

I've heard of competitive first person shooter players vs real live humans tell when someone was sneaking up at a 30 degree to the left of their straight back and rotated left instead of right and made them meet their maker. If you want, I can ask my friend who won Life to the Power of X, and was a competitor of WCG Ultimate Gamer, Jamal "zophar321" Nickens, and see if in some games, hearing things in 3D space is a rquirement to be competitive, and if so, whether standard stereo headsets would go, or if you need special "surround headsets". I'll ask him
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 22:11 
Confirmed Padawan
Confirmed Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3778
Location: United States
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 215 times
There are no special “surround headsets”. You don’t need to ask him for us, I can answer that. There are also no four wheel drive bicycles or 11 sided hexagons.

An FPS maniac is playing the game as it was meant to be played with those headphones. FPS games have “headphone mode” and you use any standard headphones. You control the camera in these games. Sonic the Hedgehog games will use some of the same elements but generally the 9 year old furries that buy those things aren’t the same customer as the FPS maniac who spends $900 on a graphics card. Things made for game systems are expected to run out of the box and to plainly state any hardware needed to play the game on the back of the box. If you need a DDR controller or a light gun, they tell you. They never say anything about sound so it’s assumed any stereo TV will accommodate. Total apples to oranges.

But none of this matters! This is the LD forum here.

Movies don’t have a “headphone mode”. Movies don’t generate their own sounds, they are just recordings. You can’t “move closer to listen” to something in a movie. There is only the camera being used by the director. To hear the original muti-channel recording as intended your only options are multi-channel setups. If you want to know what the best way is to have fun downmixing to stereo I’m afraid that’s a very subjective thing and it sounds like you are the most informed person here to tell us about it.

I should also say, “surround sound” is not a term with a real specific definition. That’s should have been the first thing I said, actually. “Surround sound” can be anything from a chorus pedal to a 500 speaker Atmos theater. What matters are the specifics of the format of it you’re playing.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 29 Nov 2017, 23:34 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 19:25
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time
signofzeta wrote:
There are no special “surround headsets”. You don’t need to ask him for us, I can answer that. There are also no four wheel drive bicycles or 11 sided hexagons.

An FPS maniac is playing the game as it was meant to be played with those headphones. FPS games have “headphone mode” and you use any standard headphones. You control the camera in these games.


I agree. There is nothing special about the Headphone that makes it surround. Even Turtle Beach admits this, by selling the Dolby 5.1 -> Dolby Headphone converter by itself, and you supply your own headphones.

Quote:
Sonic the Hedgehog games will use some of the same elements but generally the 9 year old furries that buy those things aren’t the same customer as the FPS maniac who spends $900 on a graphics card. Things made for game systems are expected to run out of the box and to plainly state any hardware needed to play the game on the back of the box. If you need a DDR controller or a light gun, they tell you. They never say anything about sound so it’s assumed any stereo TV will accommodate. Total apples to oranges.


My friend is the Original Xbox Champion according to the show http://www.jackofallgamestv.com/lifex.htm Life to the Power of X. On WCG one of the sponsors was Turtle Beach's main competitor at the time Tritton surround headsets. So he got acquainted with the concept of surround sound gaming. He fought for his show survival on Halo 3, where he famously performed Basic Cable TV's first teabagging on Dante (and I believe suffered dagger stares from the producers and sponsors for it, looking for any excuse to kick him off.) And he was for the most part a console gamer. He never games seriously on anything for personal enjoyment on anything other than a Sega machine until the closing of the Dreamcast era where he HAD to move to a new pasture. He mostly hangs around Xbox now.

Quote:
But none of this matters! This is the LD forum here.

Movies don’t have a “headphone mode”. Movies don’t generate their own sounds, they are just recordings. You can’t “move closer to listen” to something in a movie. There is only the camera being used by the director. To hear the original muti-channel recording as intended your only options are multi-channel setups. If you want to know what the best way is to have fun downmixing to stereo I’m afraid that’s a very subjective thing and it sounds like you are the most informed person here to tell us about it.

I should also say, “surround sound” is not a term with a real specific definition. That’s should have been the first thing I said, actually. “Surround sound” can be anything from a chorus pedal to a 500 speaker Atmos theater. What matters are the specifics of the format of it you’re playing.


Now that the gaming is out of the way, let's talk movies, from Laser disc and beyond. I have an accousticly awkward room as my main movie room, and the best way to get surround sound without spending too much money is to run a Dolby 5.1 (or higher, but for the purposes of the headphone it will reduce first to 5.1) into the Dolby 5.1 -> Dolby Heaphone adapter into it. How can I tell. I watch some Blu Rays in DTS. Our older player had no DTS-> Dolby re-conversion, but video game systems do have conversions both ways, which makes games system handy movie players too if your surround system can only accept one or the other. DTS soundtracks are not recognized by a Dolby 5.1-> Dolby Headphone converter and don't have a 3-dimensional soundscape. Instead the device passes it through as a standard LCPM 2-track stereo track, and trust me, I can tell the difference. But through a Game system, or a (our particular example ) Sony UBP-X800 4K+3D Blu Ray player which has native DTS-> Dolby conversion, DTS movies sound better on my Dolby 5.1-> Dolby Headphones adapter.

If I remember right, the DTS 5.1 takes up more bandwidth than Dolby 5.1 which is why some people like it better, and DTS 5.1 fits in Toslink. If anyone knows how to get the Toslink on my Panasonic LX-200PX to output Dolby 5.1 (on a Dolby encoded disc), I'd like to hear it, as well as a good test movie. Probably my best test would be Toy Story. If you can tell me how to set up the d/a button and the l/r button to output Dolby 5.1 via Toslink, I'd like to set it up that way. Also I'd like a chapter suggestion on Toy Story on which chapter would showcase 3 dimensional directional sound well.


Last edited by tripletopper on 05 May 2018, 19:05, edited 1 time in total.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 02:49 
Confirmed Padawan
Confirmed Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3778
Location: United States
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 215 times
There is no “surround sound” with headphones. You have speakers ON your ears, you are already totally surrounded. “5.1” means a signal made for six speakers in six places and at least one has significantly different dynamic range than the others. Headphones have two speakers. Some have a sub but it’s rare so where is the .1 going? Where is “center” when you only have left and right? I know what the box says, I’m telling you it’s marketing wank. There is ALWAYS something like this on the market and it ALWAYS stinks. There are more names for “better than stereo” than anyone could name going back decades.

Last night I watched Gundam Unicorn Episode 1 on a PS3 with the fancier (still sad) OEM BT headset. It was fun...but I only did it because everyone was asleep and I was lazy. This is the glory of headphones. Any special steering wasn’t really noticed by me although I’m pretty sure it’s built in.

I also use the Dolby Headphone modes built into my AVR and send them to my real cans, wired Sennheisers. Again, it just sounds like stereo to me. If there are any amazing tricks I can’t really tell.

The tricks these specials modes provide are fun, but ultimately a gimmick. Do anything you want to enjoy yourself but the correct stereo mix of every LD already comes out of the player by default and the less money you spend on crap between the player and your headphones the more you can spend on drivers, bands, enclosures and cables.

I’m not going to waste our time explaining that again.

So of all the different modes of “surround” that an LD player can produce these are your options:

Dolby Stereo: line in (2.0 all the way)
DTS: optical in (5.1)
AC-3: RF demod to optical in (5.1)

If you buy a DTS disc and you don’t like the 5.1 you’re hosed because the only stereo is analog and thats assuming there is no commentary.

I have no faith in the AC-3 route. The bit rate is drastically reduced from the normal PCM quality in the name of aggressive 5.1 which you aren’t going to get from two speakers. The stereo track should be vastly better. It’s also going to cost you like $100 if you’re lucky so that makes it double pointless. There is no way to “output Dolby 5.1 from TOSLINK” as you suggested, you need extra hardware.

The audio button cycles lets you switch between the analog and digital stereo tracks. You can also hear just one channel at a time. This was done for multilingual stuff and commentary and whatever. Nothing to do with 5.1 at all.

When you have a DTS disc it puts out DTS from the TOSLINK all the time no matter what.

When it comes to audio, quality manufacturing and correct setup beat gimmicky crap every time. Don’t believe me? The dumpsters of the world are loaded with virtual surround gimmicks past but nobody ever threw out a McIntosh.

Btw, I did some looking and aparently there are headphones (for gamers, obviously) with 5.1 drivers per ear. The set I’m looking at is $180 which...yeah, gamers. That’s not a lot of money per driver considering you need a battery in these, a mic, SIX AMPS, BT chip, etc. I’d classify that as garbage on site, but I was wrong. These things do exist.


Last edited by signofzeta on 01 Dec 2017, 06:02, edited 1 time in total.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 03:19 
True fan
True fan
User avatar

Joined: 24 May 2016, 01:40
Posts: 319
Location: NY USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 28 times
Quote:
If anyone knows how to get the Toslink on my Panasonic LX-200PX to output Dolby 5.1 (on a Dolby encoded disc), I'd like to hear it,


To put it short, you can't.

As it has already been said Dolby 5.1, or ac3 on laserdisc is output through a modulated rf signal. This rf signal is stored in the right analog channel of the disc.
The players that output ac3 rf either stock or modified, have a designated coax jack that outputs ac3 rf ONLY.
The toslink will output either PCM or DTS, it CANNOT output ac3 rf.

As far as I know the player you have does not have an ac3 rf output, if it did it would be a coax plug

To get Dolby 5.1 from laserdisc you'd need at least 2 things:
Either add an ac3 rf output to your player, or find another player that has one.

Once you do that you will still need a demodulator .

Without these things Dolby 5.1 from LD is not happening, with or without headphones.
_________________
-LD Collection
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 17:16 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 19:25
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time
sjoerg wrote:
Quote:
If anyone knows how to get the Toslink on my Panasonic LX-200PX to output Dolby 5.1 (on a Dolby encoded disc), I'd like to hear it,


To put it short, you can't.

As it has already been said Dolby 5.1, or ac3 on laserdisc is output through a modulated rf signal. This rf signal is stored in the right analog channel of the disc.
The players that output ac3 rf either stock or modified, have a designated coax jack that outputs ac3 rf ONLY.
The toslink will output either PCM or DTS, it CANNOT output ac3 rf.

As far as I know the player you have does not have an ac3 rf output, if it did it would be a coax plug

To get Dolby 5.1 from laserdisc you'd need at least 2 things:
Either add an ac3 rf output to your player, or find another player that has one.

Once you do that you will still need a demodulator .

Without these things Dolby 5.1 from LD is not happening, with or without headphones.



The reason why I ask is that my Playstation 2, Original Xbox, and newer systems pass Dolby 5.1 through Toslink. I assume DVD also passes Dolby 5.1 (or DTS 5.1) through Toslink too. So I know there's enough room for Dolby 5.1 to fit through Toslink. I just didn't know if certain Laser Disc players, like mine, which DOES NOT have a Coaxial AC3 RF port, automatically converts it to Toslink and passes it thorough in a similar manner to DVD players and PS2 and newer systems, or whether the only way to get Dolby 5.1 on Laser Disc is ONLY through a coaxial AC3RF port.

Also I'm wondering if you need a special decoder to convert Dolby 5.1 via RF into a form of Dolby 5.1 my headphones can understand. I know normally you need a decoder. But my Turtle Beaches take a raw Dolby 5.1 signal can convert it to Dolby Headphone without any other decoder. Just seeing if I can do the same thing with LD.

Also I noticed something on a newer format. From the Xbox 360 and PS3 onward, If you use an HDMI output, it seems there is enough bandwidth for both an LCPM 2.0 and a Dolby 5.1 to fit within the audio bandwidth on HDMI. How do I tell, my headphones work in surround sound, and my Playstation 3D Monitor gets an independent two-track soundtrack simultaneously with the Dolby 5.1. I understand if I use "advanced bitstream mode" like Dolby Atmos or the DTS equivalent, I'd assume there'd not be enough bandwidth for LPCM 2.0 together with Atmos in the same HDMI signal, unless you use a higher bandwidth HDMI cable and signal.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 18:36 
True fan
True fan
User avatar

Joined: 24 May 2016, 01:40
Posts: 319
Location: NY USA
Has thanked: 18 times
Been thanked: 28 times
You have to understand a format that was designed in the late 1970s is going to have limitations when compared to tech 30 years later, LD was 3/4 into its lifespan when 5.1 went on the market, it is a wonder it could produce 5.1 at all. When the original Xbox launched LD was already off the market and obsolete.

Its like expecting a 57 Buick to come loaded with Sat Nav and Sirius XM, or running a modern OS on an IBM thinkpad or something.
LD is a before the time of everything being convenient plug and play.

As for the demod question, once the rf signal is demdolated, it becomes a standard Dolby Digital signal, you shouldn't need anything else.
_________________
-LD Collection
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 20:07 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 19:25
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time
sjoerg wrote:
You have to understand a format that was designed in the late 1970s is going to have limitations when compared to tech 30 years later, LD was 3/4 into its lifespan when 5.1 went on the market, it is a wonder it could produce 5.1 at all. When the original Xbox launched LD was already off the market and obsolete.

Its like expecting a 57 Buick to come loaded with Sat Nav and Sirius XM, or running a modern OS on an IBM thinkpad or something.
LD is a before the time of everything being convenient plug and play.

As for the demod question, once the rf signal is demdolated, it becomes a standard Dolby Digital signal, you shouldn't need anything else.


I know Toslink came later than Coaxial. Coaxial is basically RF or an RCA with a different head. I don't know enough about a Panasonic LX-200PX to know whether it can send the RAW Dolby 5.1 signal through the Toslink cable.

The reason why I suspect it is because I know there are Coaxial to Toslink converters as well as Toslink to Coaxial converters and the encoded sound language is maintained throughout the translation of forms, when tested on Dolby DVDs on DVD players and Broadcast TV on coax digital TV Tuners. I have them both and I tested them and the Dolby 5.1 is preserved even with a double-translation. (I have Radio Shack models I found on Ebay.)

It sounds like I put it on the analog track and on the right track to accurately get Dolby through the device. I just don't know if that's universal for all Dolby Laser Discs, and if my Toslink will output the Dolby 5.1 track when set that way. Is Star Wars, the "one last time" edition, (the last one released before Greedo shot first) a Dolby 5.1 disc? If so, may I have a scene where the surround sounds 3D, so I can test it and report that it does or does not work with a Turtle Beach 5.1-> Headphone decoder?
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 20:46 
Jedi Initiate
Jedi Initiate
User avatar

Joined: 16 May 2009, 18:05
Posts: 3047
Location: MA USA
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 49 times
tripletopper wrote:
sjoerg wrote:
You have to understand a format that was designed in the late 1970s is going to have limitations when compared to tech 30 years later, LD was 3/4 into its lifespan when 5.1 went on the market, it is a wonder it could produce 5.1 at all. When the original Xbox launched LD was already off the market and obsolete.

Its like expecting a 57 Buick to come loaded with Sat Nav and Sirius XM, or running a modern OS on an IBM thinkpad or something.
LD is a before the time of everything being convenient plug and play.

As for the demod question, once the rf signal is demdolated, it becomes a standard Dolby Digital signal, you shouldn't need anything else.


I know Toslink came later than Coaxial. Coaxial is basically RF or an RCA with a different head. I don't know enough about a Panasonic LX-200PX to know whether it can send the RAW Dolby 5.1 signal through the Toslink cable.

The reason why I suspect it is because I know there are Coaxial to Toslink converters as well as Toslink to Coaxial converters and the encoded sound language is maintained throughout the translation of forms, when tested on Dolby DVDs on DVD players and Broadcast TV on coax digital TV Tuners. I have them both and I tested them and the Dolby 5.1 is preserved even with a double-translation. (I have Radio Shack models I found on Ebay.)

It sounds like I put it on the analog track and on the right track to accurately get Dolby through the device. I just don't know if that's universal for all Dolby Laser Discs, and if my Toslink will output the Dolby 5.1 track when set that way. Is Star Wars, the "one last time" edition, (the last one released before Greedo shot first) a Dolby 5.1 disc? If so, may I have a scene where the surround sounds 3D, so I can test it and report that it does or does not work with a Turtle Beach 5.1-> Headphone decoder?


are you trolling or what? how many times do we have to tell you? You NEED an RF demodulator period.

also on a general note, I am really tired of these RF demodulator questions we get once a week. Seriously, it's the simplest thing to understand.
_________________
Wanted
HD-VMD Discs
Hi-Vision/Muse Discs Only complete/mint!
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 21:45 
Confirmed Padawan
Confirmed Padawan
User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2010, 09:44
Posts: 3778
Location: United States
Has thanked: 87 times
Been thanked: 215 times
The AC-3 port on an LD player is essentially proprietary to LD. It doesn’t output DD 5.1. It doesn’t output SPDIF. It can’t send stereo or mono. It outputs an AC-3 encoded version of the 5.1 stream. You can’t turn it on or off, there are no settings. If it’s not an AC-3 disc then it outputs nothing. There were reasons for this both technical and political but the point is you need a demod to use it and the demod will output the DD 5.1 over its own TOSLINK which your headphones can use.

You’re never going to do any of this, at least I hope not. It’s beyond pointless.

And please try not to be insulted but your questions seem very persistently obtuse to people who mastered LD ownership 20-30 years ago.

Go back and reassess what you’re really trying to do here now that you have more data and let us know how it goes. I’d be glad to contribute to a headphone movie watching thread since I’m into that right now myself.
Offline
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Will just these get me surround sound?
PostPosted: 30 Nov 2017, 22:56 
Serious fan
Serious fan
User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2017, 19:25
Posts: 203
Location: United States
Has thanked: 2 times
Been thanked: 1 time
signofzeta wrote:
The AC-3 port on an LD player is essentially proprietary to LD. It doesn’t output DD 5.1. It doesn’t output SPDIF. It can’t send stereo or mono. It outputs an AC-3 encoded version of the 5.1 stream. You can’t turn it on or off, there are no settings. If it’s not an AC-3 disc then it outputs nothing. There were reasons for this both technical and political but the point is you need a demod to use it and the demod will output the DD 5.1 over its own TOSLINK which your headphones can use.

You’re never going to do any of this, at least I hope not. It’s beyond pointless.

And please try not to be insulted but your questions seem very persistently obtuse to people who mastered LD ownership 20-30 years ago.

Go back and reassess what you’re really trying to do here now that you have more data and let us know how it goes. I’d be glad to contribute to a headphone movie watching thread since I’m into that right now myself.


I have tested it. I took the suggested settings that a raw Dolby 5.1 signal can be sent on the right analog track, so I set my LX-200PX to "Analog" and "right only" I listened through it with the Turtle Beach Headsets, and if it was only set to Right channel only, if it were an lpcm soundtrack, I'd only get a mono soundtrack in my right ear, but not only did I hear left and right, but I could accurately heard forward and backward, as well as high and low. The "language" of Dobly 5.1 is somehow preserved into an accurate soundstage when you do this. And the turtle beach is an accurate Dolby 5.1-> Dolby headphone translator.

The reason why 5.1 have 5 separate speakers is to have 5 different locations where the sound is coming from. Dolby Headphone technology takes an existing raw Dolby 5.1 signal and converts in to a surround, albeit only 2 actual physical tracks, but nevertheless surround track which is optimized for pinpointing directions relative to a fixed center, the fixed center being between your ears. I heard both movies in DTS without the benefit of DTS 5.1->Dolby 5.1 conversion and with, on a machine like an Xbox One. If it natively passes a DTS signal, then the Turtle Beaches just pass it through as a 2 track "real coded" or "uncoded" soundtrack. When the Turtle Beaches "sense" a Dolby 5.1 languages, (you could tell the difference between Japanese, German French, and English, but you can't decode those languages you have no familiarity with. Likewise it recognizes DTS as "Not Dolby 5.1" and lets it pass untranslated.) All the Turtle Beaches do is take the Dolby 5.1, and convert it into a 2 track soundtrack, where if listened to outside the headphone environment would sound over produced and fake, but within the headphone environment accurately places sounds on a 3D Sound Stage.

Some 5.1 decoder devices have to take into account the room, and you have to do testing and setups. Frankly I never owned one, but I heard they are expensive in both goods and labor. And even if it were done, it would be optimized for one location in the room, so if you're not in the king's chair, it sucks to be you With Dolby Headphone, no matter where you are in the room, YOU are the center of the soundstage. And you can have it center around as many people as there are headphones. (Just make usure they are not in connected USB ports, even a multi-USB-to-AC adapter. Use a Single USB-to-AC adapter)

If someone else who has both a laser disc player, a laser disc encoded in the same sound standard as your surround headphones are (which I admit is one flaw of this setup, no dual Dolby/DTS models of headphones,) and if necessary, add a coaxial to toslink converter to get it to fit in most headphones.

Another benefit is that the x41 has a 3.5 mm stereo output, but that is ALSO encoded in headphone mode. A second person can listen with regular headphones (over-ear is best followed by on-ear. In-ear buds are not recommended by me for 2 reasons. 1) it's an alien probe kind of feeling I get, never liked them, and 2) the soundscape has too much variability with it being positioned different ways in ear, so without being able to control that factor, the sounds are gobbledygook.) You can run that into a DVD recorder with only RCA L/R inputs, or a base model game footage recorder (my brand is a Hauppauge Rocket recorder) that hooks into a computer or directly records on USB Flash drive. If you record that, and play it a regular USB video or DVD player, and hear it through headphones, it sounds like an accurate 3D soundscape. Admittedly, make a note at the beginning saying "Best with Headphones", because if you don't listen via headphones, it will sound fake and artificial and badly distorted.

That's why headphone videos can be played on you tube many years ago, even though they has only 2 track stereo until recently. A lot of videos that use that will say "Best with headphones." The Virtual Barber Shop is one famous example. There reason you can hear surround in Youtube videos is because they are "post-decoded videos". It's the same reason you can have side-by-side half 3D video on you tube. They rely on your TV to accurately decode it. Most 3D youtube video is not natively thought of as 3D, at least until recently. I can get accurate stereoscopy from a side-by-side half video that is recorded as a standard video, my using ,manual 3D. I've even made a 3D-DVD for and of my friend's wedding where I was best man. Watching it in 2D gives twin squished images, but run it through a 3D TV and it's right. And trust me, from the perspective of a heterosexual single man, which I am one, women in formal dresses look a lot better in 3d. ;)


Last edited by tripletopper on 30 Nov 2017, 23:19, edited 1 time in total.
Offline
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 Page 1 of 8 [ 157 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 8  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: