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 Post subject: CLD-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2018, 05:30 
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(am posting this to save others my same fate in the future, the cld-1010 does not have a red laser)

somewhere along the line, i read that the cld-1010 had a "red diode laser". This information is proliferate on this site, wikipedia, and even laserdisc archive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_CLD-1010
http://www.laserdiscarchive.co.uk/laser ... d-1010.htm
http://forum.lddb.com/viewtopic.php?t=4550&p=58425

this made me quite excited. I bought one, it was ruined in shipping. I got another 2. I took the top off and loaded a disc and saw a faint red glow in the vicinity of the pickup. "proof" i thought to myself. Then i saw that the parts for the pickups looked similar to the cld-1050 (PAL player). "A red laser PAL player?" I thought that would be interesting. I ordered one of those.

Life happened, my girlfriend and her kids moved in and i had to move all my laserdisc stuff to the basement and have been busy in assisting with parenting her teenage children. Laserdisc players sat...

today i was reading and found https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... NsiibmoIsY where a guy "nico" (7 posts down) made a troubling comment: "Where the rumor comes from I don't know, but the CLD-1010/CLD-1050 do NOT have a red laser". Of course i was in disbelief, i saw a red glow!

However, the manual actually states that it, in fact, is just a plain old 780nm IR diode laser: http://img.manualscenter.com//manuals/h ... 1E1003.png (that link was posted in CLD-1010 owners by acuozzo)

That seemed troubling.

I came home and went straight to the basement, took off the cover of the cld-1010 and loaded up a 8" karaoke LD and fast forwarded to the edge. Looking closer, there is some little red LED light near the pickup, but about an inch away from the disc, and it is surfaced mounted on the PCB (no where close to the disc surface). I hit the lights, and using a small mirror, looked where the pickup meets the disc. NOTHING. no visible laser light. i tried the CLD-1010 that works. Then the CLD-1050.

I do have a HeNe player, and you can see that laser as it hits the disc, so this isn't a "it's too small to see" kind of thing. I think sometime in the past maybe people mistook the red glow of that PCB mounted light as a red laser.

If you own one, take the cover off, and look closely. I think the manual is proof enough though.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2018, 13:07 
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Thanks for that.

Got one of these players years ago & it is my back-up player - a CLD-D925 is my regular workhorse.

The red laser thing, back when I bought the 1010 I was told that it had a red laser & if you played LDs that had the dreaded rot it may play them a little better than other (non red laser) players. Tried a couple or three discs that had light rot/colour flash & can't say that I noticed any difference.

I am in the UK & most of my "rotters" are PDO UK PAL pressed LDs so can't try them on the 1010.

Had the cover off when purchased but spotless inside so a wee look & the cover was put back on.

If the 1010 does not have a red laser where did the 1010 red laser thing come from? More LD babble perhaps? I am not great with the tech stuff so can anyone who knows confirm what type is inside the 1010?

Cheers.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2018, 17:32 
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I was always told by techs that it did indeed have a red laser.
Also that info from laserdiscarchive is from pamphlets or magazine articles, so if it is wrong they messed up back in the day??

While I did own a 1010 for a short time I didn't notice any difference with rot but the S1 is a clear winner when it comes to the two player.
S1 does play rotted discs with less speckling, I have seen it with my own eyes.

Its not a lot but it will remove very light speckling.


And if it doesn't have a red laser its not like you are paying a premium for this player, they are always in the 100-150 range and that's about right for a single sided player.

If working and well worth it.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2018, 17:48 
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i almost had myself a 1010, with it's remote/manual, for $50/60 a decade back, but the deal fell through at the last moment.
i was stuck making do with an LD-838D for a couple years or so,
until finding my CLD-3030 on the BAY around 2008, with remote/manual/some discs for $60-odd shipped...
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* PIONEER CLD-3030 Compatible LDP (1988) (( CLD-3030 Chassis-based LD players ))
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 01 Mar 2018, 17:50 
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There is some soft glowing red light source surface mounted to the PCB of the pickup mechanism. At first glance, it appears to be red light glowing from the pickup, and could easily be mistaken for reflection from a red laser hitting the disc. The first time I looked, that is what I thought.

I also found this:

Short history of laser development, section 22 (complete with references)

"In 1985, Sony researchers reported cracking that barrier by developing AlGaInP diodes emitting cw at room temperature at 671nm in the laboratory. Two years later, Tohru Suzuki of NEC told CLEO 1987 that GaInP diode lasers had operated at 3 to 5 mW at 678nm for more than 4500h at room temperature, doubling the operating time reported earlier in the year, and highlighting his talk with a red diode pointer build from one of the lasers."

https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/jour ... full?SSO=1

If a "prototype" red diode laser was being demonstrated by Tohru Suzuki in 1987, there is no way it could have been included in a laserdisc player sold in 1987.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 00:16 
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DiscLord was the one who told me about the Red Laser Diode in the CLD-1010. I have no idea where he obtained that information.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 17:42 
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blam1 wrote:
DiscLord was the one who told me about the Red Laser Diode in the CLD-1010. I have no idea where he obtained that information.

I learned about it from kbahr some years ago in an email.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 17:53 
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Grasshopper sent me one and he said it was red.

But like I said above, you aren't really paying a premium for this player if working.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 21:12 
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I’m not someone who has paid any attention to this sort of thing, but 780nm *is* visable red light as far as I know. It’s likely you can’t see it because it’s just too weak and puny and focused on a very small area.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 22:25 
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signofzeta wrote:
I’m not someone who has paid any attention to this sort of thing, but 780nm *is* visable red light as far as I know. It’s likely you can’t see it because it’s just too weak and puny and focused on a very small area.



780nm is infrared, it is the frequency that most remote controls use, cd players use, and solid state diode laser LD players use (excepting the muse players).

The human eye generally tops out at 700nm according to various scientific sources.

the HeNe player use 632nm (which is clearly visible orangish red). A dvd player use 670nm which is also clearly visible deep red. The muse players use 670nm as well.

http://www.us-lasers.com/n780nm5m.htm


Last edited by 9954tony on 03 Mar 2018, 00:37, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 22:28 
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signofzeta wrote:
I’m not someone who has paid any attention to this sort of thing, but 780nm *is* visable red light as far as I know. It’s likely you can’t see it because it’s just too weak and puny and focused on a very small area.


maybe you are mixing frequency and nm? \

"A typical human eye will respond to wavelengths from about 390 to 700 nm.[1] In terms of frequency, this corresponds to a band in the vicinity of 430–770 THz."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_spectrum
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 23:17 
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This player is worth much more than 100-150.

Even if this does have a red laser what does it matter.
Even if this does not have a red laser what does it matter.

Its not like they are selling for a few grand.
Its not like someone is hording a warehouse of these players.

And from the quick search I found aren't all lasers red??
Red, red/orange orangeish........
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PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 23:38 
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rein-o wrote:
This player is worth much more than 100-150.

Even if this does have a red laser what does it matter.
Even if this does not have a red laser what does it matter.

Its not like they are selling for a few grand.
Its not like someone is hording a warehouse of these players.

And from the quick search I found aren't all lasers red??
Red, red/orange orangeish........


what? No not every laser is red. you can get lasers in any color. blu, green, yellow, orange, red, purple, UV, IR, etc. bluray players and hddvd players use blu lasers.

what it matters? the smaller the laser "nm", the smaller the spot it makes, and the more detail it can resolve. this is physics. That is why bluray and hddvd couldn't be made until blue lasers were cheap enough for mass market. how else do you think that a bluray disc can hold so much more data than a dvd? spot size.

the original LD spec is based on the 632nm laser which has a smaller spot size than the 780nm laser. This is a reason why 780nm players have problems with discovision. <-- could contribute to why 780nm players have problems with discovision. The muse players have a 670nm which is much closer to 632nm.

Do you know what "track crosstalk" is with regard to laserdiscs? it is when the spot of the laser picks up the adjacent tracks. the smaller the spot of the laser, the less likely this is to be. I have quite a few discs where "track crosstalk" is visible, and it degrades picture quality. so smaller spot equals better PQ in discs with this problem.

So the shorter wavelength (measured in nanometer "nm"), equals smaller spot, equals less track crosstalk. UPDATE: Lens quality and multiplier are also very important to spot size, but laser spot can not be less than laser wavelength. Given the same lens quality and multiplier, a shorter wavelength laser will have a smaller spot.

my issue actually has to do with misinformation though. i don't care about cost or money, i wouldn't buy LD in the first place if that was the case.


Last edited by 9954tony on 04 Mar 2018, 19:09, edited 6 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 02 Mar 2018, 23:45 
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I know what crosstalk is.
Been collecting LD since 1989.
Thank you for adding to the conversation about the other colors of lasers, yes but I was just talking about LD lasers.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 03 Mar 2018, 00:00 
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rein-o,

i kind of geek out on the science of this stuff, and so do some others. it isn't so much about money or worth of players to me, it is more about being curious and technical accuracy. I like this image: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Comp ... DVD_BD.svg

on the left, a 780nm laser spot is shown, and it covers 1.6 micrometers on the surface of the disc. next to it, a 650nm dvd laser spot is shown, it covers 1.1 micrometers of the disc. The original 632nm laser would have had an even smaller spot. the difference in spot size from 1.1 to 1.6 is almost a 50% increase! I erroneously used the DVD lens multiplier to calculate HeNe spot size, see posts below

the picture illustrates how a smaller laser spot could read the disc with less interference from adjacent tracks.


Last edited by 9954tony on 04 Mar 2018, 19:10, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 03 Mar 2018, 00:07 
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rein-o wrote:
I know what crosstalk is.
Been collecting LD since 1989.
Thank you for adding to the conversation about the other colors of lasers, yes but I was just talking about LD lasers.


sorry, i am not trying to offend.

Yes, laserdisc players had infra(red), red, and orange(red) lasers. Even though they are all close to each other on the light spectrum, and have some kind of "red" in them, the spot size at 650nm (DVD) is close to 1.1 micrometer (micron), and 1.6 micrometer (micron) at 780nm. That is a pretty big difference, more than a 50% increase. post updated to be more specific, red laser DVD spot size comparison to LD spot size.


Last edited by 9954tony on 04 Mar 2018, 19:14, edited 2 times in total.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 03 Mar 2018, 00:13 
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attached see an electron microscope scan of the surface of a laserdisc. notice the imperfections to the sides of the tracks? the smaller laser spot will pick up less of this "interference", resulting in better PQ.


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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 03 Mar 2018, 23:45 
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I'm not sure you have all the science here. I know I don't, but I also know enough to sense that nobody else here does either.
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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2018, 18:51 
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signofzeta wrote:
I'm not sure you have all the science here. I know I don't, but I also know enough to sense that nobody else here does either.


There used to be a few other people on here that I did discuss these kinds of things with, and one in particular that provided me with pointers to documentation. Maybe they are gone now? I don't have all the information, discovery and learning is a continuous process. I wish you had been more specific in what it is you think I am off about, but your comment did cause me to check over my facts, and I was wrong about the original HeNe laserdisc spot size. So you see, even the act of discussing it has lead to more accurate information for me.

laser wavelength does correlate to spot size:
Quote:
a) Spot size can not arbitrarily be made 'small'. The smallest theoretical diameter is, roughly, wavelength of the beam..

from http://www.parallax-tech.com/faq.htm

however, spot size is a function of BOTH laser wavelength and lense components. the manufacturing technology of both have improved. The spot size of the HeNe laserdisc player was not readily found when I was looking, so I inferred it using the same multiplier as the DVD laser spot, because they are close in wavelength. The lens multiplier for a DVD laser is ~1.7 (650nm wavelength * 1.7 = 1105nm, or ~1.1microns). So using that same multiplier for HeNe: 632 * 1.7 = 1074nm, or ~1.0microns. This is wrong though. After your post, i revisited https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... DVD_BD.svg and noticed that the lense multiplier has gotten continuously smaller over time:
CD ~2.0 (780nm * 2 = ~ 1600nm or 1.6microns spot size)
DVD~1.7 (650nm * 1.7 = ~1105nm or 1.1microns spot size)
HDDVD ~1.5 (405 * 1.5 = ~620nm spot size)
BLURAY ~1.2 (405 * 1.2 = ~480nm spot size)

The trend is clear, the optical multiplier has reduced over the years, and I realized it was unlikely that the optical multiplier for the HeNe player would be *better* than the later produced CD player. So I did more digging and found the attached diagram in "pioneer tuning fork #6" titled "cross-section of Laser Disc". Which shows the spot size to be 1.5microns. Only a fraction smaller than the 780nm spot size. I will correct my earlier posts.

As to the visibility of of 780nm lasers, they are not visible to me, at least. Look at the end of your remote control and press buttons, i don't see anything. However, if you use your cell phone camera in preview mode and look at the end of your remote while you press buttons, you will see it through the camera (good trick to test if your remote is working!) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqCzHXCEQgQ HeNe lasers and DVD lasers are *very* visible.

Track crosstalk happens when the tracks of the LD are closer together than spec, and the laser spot of the pickup reads both the current track, and the adjacent track. It seems to me then, that a smaller laser spot would be less likely to pick up the crosstalk. That is, if you were to read a LD with DVD size laser spot, you could reduce track crosstalk on discs that have it. This is NOT a fact, it is my hypothesis. It could very well be wrong. Had the CLD-1010 actually had a visible red laser with a smaller spot size, i could have tested this hypothesis. Hence the initial reason for this thread.

It should be noted that the X9 and X0 both use a visible red laser, and have been praised for the picture quality. however, i fully understand that this could be due to a number of factors, and not just laser wavelength.


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 Post subject: Re: cld-1010 mythbusters
PostPosted: 04 Mar 2018, 18:52 
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See attached ld660.png for example of 632nm laser. the camera shifted the color towards pink, it is more orange in real life. But is is blindingly visible.


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