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 Post subject: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 00:17 
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CRT TVs have a demand greater than the supply of zero new sets built. This is because retro gamers love CRTs for 3 reasons. One is the fact that the ping is so low, Genesis and SNES street fighter players actually have more success playing a defensive game other than just defending against "going to the well once too often". It’s sub-microsecond ping time is as quick as possible.

Another side effect is that light gun games only work on CRT TVs because game systems utilize CRT’s sub-microsecond timing to figure where you’re aiming by sensing when it senses the light.

Also of note, because the 240p mode is a lost art on most LCD screens, and the over-1-millisecond timing of a modern ruining the snc. Sega Scpe 3D doesn’t work.

But there’s one that Laser Disc owners might appreciate: Color blending. In video games blurriness gives the intended effect in retro gaming. With only 4 simultaneous colors on the Atari 2600, on emulation with a mdoern tV you can see the pixels, but on a CRT TV, the colors blend more.

I was lucky enough to borrow my uncle’s Song of the South Japanese LD, and I ran it thorugh my DVD recorder,a nd copied it. Even watching the DVD through the CRT TV, the colors looked more distinct,(ie Blocky) because of the digital recording method.

Are Laser Discs best watched on a CRT TVs, preferably an S-Video CRT TV?
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 01:07 
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 01:54 
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I guess if a digital TV can receive an analog S-Video signal, and break down the analog wave into more higher-bit-color pixels, I guess a modern 4kx2K, 30-bit-color TV would work, depending on how good the analog-to-digital converter works.

Of course I assume not every TV is designed to do Analog-> Digital conversions well hence why a lot of Retro game players prefer the CRT TVs. Heck, even the waterfall transparencies on Sonic the Hedgehog for the Genesis take advantage of a 240px60Hz display and a CRT color blending, because natively, the pure bit for bit signal on modern versions of the ORIGINAL Sonic, (not those made for more modern systems) directly to the TV without the software-based CRT simulation is awful.

I just noticed the Song of the South DVD copy from the Laser Disc master doesn’t quite look the same. Also playing laser discs on my LCD 3D screen look less colorful, although I must admit it’s run through a DVD processor since the Playstaiton 3D TV has no native Composite, S- Video or RF NTSC antenna inputs. Only component and HDMI.

Are there certain modern TVS that play analog media well? And is it just that the Playstation 3D TV is not one of them, unless it’s native component?
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 02:04 
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tripletopper wrote:
Are Laser Discs best watched on a CRT TVs, preferably an S-Video CRT TV?

Yeah like substance says, no.

While CRTs are nice you can get the same or better from a properly calibrated new set.
Some sets do take LD better than others but so far with really old and mid aged LCD sets I've had great success.

If you have component you can run the Yellow video into the Green of the component and it will act the same.

Good luck and enjoy LD.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 03:47 
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I don’t know why the CRT looks better on the Laser Disc straight to the CRT TV compared to the LD to the DVD recorder and THEN to the PLaystaiotn 3D TV. I have to do an eyeball test with Star Wars LD VS LD-> DVD copy of the Original Star Wars.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 04:19 
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Regardless of any technical factors most people prefer the most massive display possible and no wide CRT is greater than maybe 34-38”. That alone will do it. People want to leave burn-in...in the shape of their couch on the opposite wall of the TV. They want a sun with an HDMI port. Also they would be picked on by their friends for having such old out of date stuff as CRTs. They would rather their LDs look terrible than look like a caveman.

By the time most people realized they had screwed themselves* ditching their CRTs for LCDs we started to see high end scalers that greatly alleviated the normal isssues and now you can buy a brand new Bravia for less than a grand and LD will look great plugged straight into it.

My personal opinion is that CRT is my favorite and I have several but there is no “demand in the community” like you say. There would be if we were in the year 2005 or around there but it’s not that dire anymore. Not bad enough to freight ship a 250lb display or even haul it into the house.






* much like when people chucked their turntables for awful first gen CD players and pitiful selection of titles. Eventually it worked itself out.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 05:23 
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rein-o wrote:
tripletopper wrote:
Are Laser Discs best watched on a CRT TVs, preferably an S-Video CRT TV?

Yeah like substance says, no.

While CRTs are nice you can get the same or better from a properly calibrated new set.
Some sets do take LD better than others but so far with really old and mid aged LCD sets I've had great success.

If you have component you can run the Yellow video into the Green of the component and it will act the same.

Good luck and enjoy LD.


I have to say I strongly disagree. Old LCDs are super trash, newer displays are so much better. How hard are you tinkering with the settings and in what way? I'm curious.

signofzeta wrote:
Regardless of any technical factors most people prefer the most massive display possible and no wide CRT is greater than maybe 34-38”. That alone will do it. People want to leave burn-in...in the shape of their couch on the opposite wall of the TV. They want a sun with an HDMI port. Also they would be picked on by their friends for having such old out of date stuff as CRTs. They would rather their LDs look terrible than look like a caveman.

By the time most people realized they had screwed themselves* ditching their CRTs for LCDs we started to see high end scalers that greatly alleviated the normal isssues and now you can buy a brand new Bravia for less than a grand and LD will look great plugged straight into it.

My personal opinion is that CRT is my favorite and I have several but there is no “demand in the community” like you say. There would be if we were in the year 2005 or around there but it’s not that dire anymore. Not bad enough to freight ship a 250lb display or even haul it into the house.






* much like when people chucked their turntables for awful first gen CD players and pitiful selection of titles. Eventually it worked itself out.


This is marvelous.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 07:15 
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In my downstairs shop I have a white Toshiba LCD TV someone gave me with a DVD player built into it. Its very slick looking, compact, and very enjoyable to use but it SUCKS picture-wise. Even the DVDs you play in its built-in DVD player look bad. I have a Samsung CRT of about the same size and vintage and frankly everything looks amazing on it. The phosphors just...smooth everything out. I normally run arcade boards on it in s-video but LD's over composite look fantastic just...really small. Like 19". You get that giant display and then you spend like ten car payments on successive layers of gear just to rectify the problems invisible on a period display.

As soon as you jack up your truck and put them big tires on it stuff starts breaking!
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 16:16 
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rein-o wrote:
I have to say I strongly disagree. Old LCDs are super trash, newer displays are so much better. How hard are you tinkering with the settings and in what way? I'm curious.


I don't know, its a Sony Bravia, my other set is from 2014? or 13. and its a panasonic.
The sony is from 2006 or around that, its total junk but I was really shocked and how nice of a picture I was able to get.
Not amazing in anyway but nice, I'll have to try posting a picture.

The image does look muted a little and nowhere near as good as my newer set but its overall not garbage in anyway.
My neighbor was tossing the set so I grabbed it.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 17:48 
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Those are Sonys, to be fair. I have a Bravia LCD from like 2006 I think and it does OK. The bad LCDs were the ones from the companies that now have all of Sony’s business like Vizeo or store brands. These things were the absolute worst unless they happened to have DVI or some other more direct input. Composite sources were nasty, even componant was not so great. Most of these were 720p so had to scale basically everything in some way or another and it usually did it badly.

The one I have that sucks is a Toshiba and their CRTs were good at any price point so clearly they had problems with the transition.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 17:49 
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signofzeta wrote:
Those are Sonys, to be fair. I have a Bravia LCD from like 2006 I think and it does OK. The bad LCDs were the ones from the companies that now have all of Sony’s business like Vizeo or store brands. These things were the absolute worst unless they happened to have DVI or some other more direct input. Composite sources were nasty, even componant was not so great. Most of these were 720p so had to scale basically everything in some way or another and it usually did it badly.


^^

This. The majority from that time suck. There are always premium sets that cost more but those are the exception from then. At this point and even by 5+ years ago even lower level sets are pretty decent.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 19:56 
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signofzeta wrote:
Regardless of any technical factors most people prefer the most massive display possible and no wide CRT is greater than maybe 34-38”. That alone will do it. People want to leave burn-in...in the shape of their couch on the opposite wall of the TV. They want a sun with an HDMI port. Also they would be picked on by their friends for having such old out of date stuff as CRTs. They would rather their LDs look terrible than look like a caveman.

By the time most people realized they had screwed themselves* ditching their CRTs for LCDs we started to see high end scalers that greatly alleviated the normal isssues and now you can buy a brand new Bravia for less than a grand and LD will look great plugged straight into it.

My personal opinion is that CRT is my favorite and I have several but there is no “demand in the community” like you say. There would be if we were in the year 2005 or around there but it’s not that dire anymore. Not bad enough to freight ship a 250lb display or even haul it into the house.

Finally, about your last comment, who would have thought a record player would both come back, and come back as a superior format compared to CDs, when originally CDs were marketed as the superior format? As for Cassette, the Guardians of the Galaxy Soundtrack alone is not enough to resurrect Cassette as a prerecorded audio format.

My local media exchange shop now has a record section and a CD section, but no cassette section. a VHS section, a DVD, Blu Ray, 4K, and 3D section, but no Beta, Laser Disc, and HD DVD section, and can literally take any old video game format from the 2600 to the 360, if the buying price is right compared to the selling price. I even found an Emerson Arcadia 2001 as a format at a different location of the same chain in 2004 for $30 with 7 games.



* much like when people chucked their turntables for awful first gen CD players and pitiful selection of titles. Eventually it worked itself out.


I guess the main reason the "demand" for CRT TVs is greater in the Retro Game Community over the Retro Movie Format community is because there are more practical reasons why CRTs are great retro game TVs worth going out of your way for, and the exact same TV as a Retro Movie TV is not.

Most Retro Movie enthusiasts won’t notice a sub-microsecond ping time vs a 33 ms ping time on a my PS3DTV on movies.

And since I can’t send my Laser Disc directly into my Playstation 3D TV, (no composite, even through one of the 3 component holes, no S-Video, and no NTSC antenna port) I’m at the mercy of all the steps in between the LD player and PS3DTV, like my Philips DVD recorder. which has a composite and S-Video inputs, and it can send out component and HDMI in addition to the other formats. For games, ping time is killer, but for movies it’s adequate.

I have a CRT TV for games anyway, and it’s bigger than my PS3DTV (24 inches 4x3 vs 24 inches 16 x 9) and, to me, the Laser Disc looks more gorgeous through the CRT TV than the LCD TV.

I guess when it comes to movies, size matters, especially the bigger the better. This is more so compared to video games where a screen too large causes you to not see the whole screen at once, causing you to miss important details. That’s why most video game competitions are played real close to the contestants and around a 20-30 inch TV, and if there is a fan base audience watching, it’s piped to a bigger TV for the studio audience. WCG Ultimate Gamer had a thousand seat stadium and had scoreboard-sized screens for the fans, but the competitors had "gaming sized" TV really close to them.

Can most people agree, in my case, if you already have a CRT TV for Retro Gaming, and your HDTV is around the same size diagonally, and your HDTV doesn’t understand S-Video, Composite, or NTSC RF natively, like the Playstation 3D TV is, then the CRT is a FAR better choice for watching Laser Discs than the HDTV?

Finally, just because it’s done in a theater a certain way doesn’t mean that’s the best way to do it at home. Theaters have large screens, communal surround sound and when it’s in 3D, it uses Polarized 3D, because it’s cheaper and easier to serve hundreds to thousands at a time using these options, but if you’re in your movie watching hermit hole, a smaller, closer screen replaces a bigger screen, (this choice is controversial on LDDB: ;) ) surround headphones have a more accurate surround effect and a less fussy setup than communal speakers in home, and Shutter Based 3D is more expensive per person when you get to Super Bowl Party attendance sizes, but is an objectively better 3D standard or a family of 4 or less.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 20:56 
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With old school games, PS/SS and back, I’m CRT all the way. LDs can actually benefit greatly from messing with the signal but it only hurts games.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 22:04 
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signofzeta wrote:
With old school games, PS/SS and back, I’m CRT all the way. LDs can actually benefit greatly from messing with the signal but it only hurts games.


Agree. And the PS2 is also truly a CRT console in my book.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 14 Feb 2019, 23:55 
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signofzeta wrote:
With old school games, PS/SS and back, I’m CRT all the way. LDs can actually benefit greatly from messing with the signal but it only hurts games.


As for Laser Discs, IU notice the Laser Disc on a CRT TV to be a) more colorful, and b) less pixelated in colors, and more gradually blended colors.

I know that screen size may be the number reason why modern movies are watched on big screens, even if the technologies don’t mesh well, like analog LD video vs an LCD Digital Display. And they just didn’t make CRTs in bigger than 35 inches, and you need 2 or 3 people to install it.

The rest of this posting is deep philosophizing about the nature of digital vs analog technologies in terms of mathematics. So if you don’t want to think deep, then stop here. If you get a headache, don’t say I didn’t warn you...

I just grouped it as a spoiler so that you only read it if you really want to.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
(for the purposes of the math let’s assume, for easier calculation’s sake, that screens are 1:1 aspect ratio and a 1080p tv is really a 1000x1000 pixel TV so a 10m by 10 m TV, which if measured diagonally would be a 14 m tv so an approximately 300 inch TV would have 1 cm x 1 cm pixels, also I know my measurements aren’t exact, maybe the degree of analogousness may be over and under stated, I’m just engaging in a thought exercise to demonstrate my point)

I heard if a digital picture had to equal an analog CRT TV, the number of possible AND simultaneous colors has to be 90 bit color and whatever number 2^90 is is the number of pixels needed on a screen (1.2E24). 4K tTVs usually have 30 bit color. Older 1080p TVs without HDR are 24-bit color. 30 bit color is 1.1 billion colors or 1.1E9. You can have a billion pixels across and a billion pixels up and down and have every one pixel a unique color and still not get a defined or colorful picture in terms of display as a CRT TV. Of course you need a TerrorDisc (a hypothetical 100 TB optical disc that uses both modern digital compression on steroids and a 30cm Laser DIsc physical media size), and a screen pigment system that can be one millionth in LENGTH (square that number to get one trillionth the area) compared to a current pixel, making a pixel 10 nanometers by 10 nanometers on a 10 M x 10 m screen.

The reason why it takes quite a bit of bits and pixels to look close to reality, is because digital media has distinct steps. but if they were uncompressed, meaning there are thousands of possible levels a bit can be stamped at, yo have them grouped in "bit groups" (which was called a "byte" back when a bit group was 8 bits to make a single ascii character or a single wave step in an Audio CD. The term "Byte" lost its practical meaning when 16 bit processors came along, and there was more memory where you can make a bit group as big as you want for your own purposes, like scanners and TVs with 24 bit color, and now 30 bit color, and is now used to make it hard to easily compare file sizes and internet speeds, files being in -Bytes, net speeds being in -Bits/second. where the dash is where you put the appropriate metric prefix.) and the larger the number of bits in a bit group, the finer the distinctions can be made. The simplest compressio is to have 8 1’s and zeros taken as a byte to be read a s a unit, making 256 possible values out of a reflect/absorb binary stamping pattern. So adding 1 bit of color scale doubles the number of possible shades. so going from 24 bits to 30 bit color makes 64 times as many colors. And there’s 4 times as many pixels by cutting the length of a pixel in half given the same size screen.

The laserdisc and CRT TV is continuous, whereas a digital disc, and a digital TV is discrete. The difference between a digital and analog is like the difference between a flight of stairs and a handicapped ramp.

And just like stairs take a lot less area to climb a step or 2 than a handicaped ramp to climb the same few stairs in height, so does compressed discrete digtial media takes up less real estate than continuous media. Hence why you started with a 30 cm LD and went down to a 12cm DVD and then because the size is perfect enough, making smaller and smaller areas one bit takes up gets more data on the same disc.. Two things, one is a compressed form of the other, but the other is "more true to reality", Just like mathematics have discrete and continuous version. Playing cards is a discrete randomizer, and a spinning wheel with no defining spokes is continuous randomizer. Some aspects of probability are shared, and Calcuus defines the process of making smaller and smaller discrete calculations into a continuous calculation. It was derived form measuring slopes off 2 point lines along a curve, and bringing them closer together. The closest they can be is the same point exactly, but traditional pre-calculus Math doesn’t adequately answer certain questions.

A handicap ramp can be thought of 1000 micrometer-high height, and similarly short length differences, discrete can be continuous enough for human purposes. The human eye cannot see 1000 1-micrometer high steps, which just looks like a continuous ramp from our human perspective. But look in a microscope and you might see 1000 micrometer-high steps. Maybe not at hat macro of as level, but If a piece of matter can be infinitely divided, then there would be no "split the atom" moment, so the existence of the atomic model of matter suggests a digital, discrete universe if you dig deep enough.

Even though the the universe may be discrete, the mathematic system must be powerful enough to be potentially continuous. Maybe a Laser Disc’s height measurement of a wave groove’s height is so many picometers, and divisions between the base unit and the frame unit of "wave sensing animaiton" is so small not to be recognized, then you found the point where it ceases being analog and starts becoming digital.

Analog records is a pure analog technology, the record groove is a miniaturized sound wave representing the music. Laser Disc is Analog UNTIL you talk about the height measurements of the laser. The degree of sensitivity is how close to actual analog the digtial gets. I doubt a laser can measure an infinite nubmer of significant digits of heights down to the subatomic level, so at some point te analog becomes digital.

It’s like an argument between Dolby Digital 51 and DTS 5.1 DTS may be technically better n terms of closeness to the actual sound wave, but is the difference so fine that no human ear can pick it up, but a computerized microphone can? If that’s true, then who is your true audience, human ears or computerized reproductions?

No handicapped people refuse to climb a ramp because the 1 micrometer steps have doubled in height to 2 micrometer steps, even though the run of the step size is twice as long too, can a handicapped eprson feel the coarseness and bumpiness when were thinking in terms of these small of numbers. (again, don’t nitpick the numbers, I’m just talking concept, which I have to do when you talk the micro universe to more easily convey it to those who want to read.)

And I know it’s not perfect, Analog TV has analog rows and digital columns, meaning there are a distinct number of rows and they make vertical steps, but horizontally is wave like and continuous on a continuous display like a CRT TV.


Last edited by tripletopper on 15 Feb 2019, 00:06, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2019, 00:01 
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I know most people didn’t read dthe whole thing, and I warned of getting too deep ad gave tyou permission to bail if it became too heady. If there was some whay I could use a spoiler or "tangential" tag, I would have done it. Oh wait there is let me go back and do it.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2019, 01:03 
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Just wondering, if your media room is mainly a gaming room that can also run movies, and your choices of 2 TVs you have were a 24 Inch Sony Wega 4x3 Composite/Component/S-Video/NTSC RF CRT TV and a 24 inch Sony Playstation 3D Display (by the way the most popular single 3D media viewer model of all time, if you couldn’t afford a $1500+ 3D TV in 2010, and you wanted 3D TV come hell or high water, or if you were also a gamer, and too big of a screen would prevent you from seeing the whole screen at once, but be able to focus on a detail if necessary.) with only HDMI and Component, would it worth dealing with the trouble of having two TVs, and watch your Laser Disc, VHS, Beta, and play video games of a certain age or older on the CRT TV, and watch the Blu Rays, 3D movies, Dish Network, and PS3 Xbox 360 and newer games on the Playstation 3D TV?

If the sizes are close, does the CRT TV picture on Laser DIsc have a better enough picture than a LCD TV to justify keeping the CRT TV, and watching all Laser Discs on CRT TVs? Or is it nitpicking?
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2019, 08:05 
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Circa '96 guy had a widescreen CRT, I want a widescreen CRT. Easy.
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2019, 16:39 
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running legacy SD games consoles directly into an LCD HDTV doesn't really seem to yield all that ghastly-looking a result,
even on a seven-year-old BEST BUY house-brand model. at least not to my eye;

Image


perhaps i simply do not know what sort of HDM upscaling artifacts i should be looking for, and be appropriately offended by.
or, perhaps, they do in fact exist right under my nose, but i happen to simply not bothered by them enough to be taking active exception, i just don't know.

after all, i am the sort of video enthusiast that, while hardly blind to the staggering advancements made in the last two-plus decades,
can actually still live comfortably alongside 1970's videotape-based formats such as VHS. make of that what you may...
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 Post subject: Re: Are CRT TV in demand in the Laser Disc community?
PostPosted: 15 Feb 2019, 18:23 
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Tokimeki Memorial is more of a slide show generator than a game. Aside from bad fake shadows even the worst TV isn’t going to do much bad to a game that doesn’t movie.. Lag doesn’t matter when you are taking a multiple choice test.
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