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 Post subject: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 17:38 
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My uncle owns a Japanese Bilingual Synched Mono Song of the South Laser Disc. SO I took it home and made a DVD-R Copy. On both the laser disc and the DVD-R on a PS3, I could play it, crank the balance all the way to the right and mute the Japanese.

However when I did it on the Xbox One, I heard a slight echoey Japanese, even when I shifted the balance to R !0/10.

At first I tried setting the Xbox to Mono. It just made the mess even more indistinguishable by blending the two tracks into one alien language coming out of both speakers.

I did some pondering and then I remembered, that my Xbox One has an audio setting for Dolby Atmos Headphone through Headphone port, and the box for HDMI and Toslink sound becoming Headphone sound was checked on.

As it turned out, the Dolby Atmos Headphone App was trying to turn 2 synched mono tracks into a 2-track surround track.

So the obvious solution was to turn off the HDMI and Toslink headphone decode, THEN shift the balance all the way to the right.

And it worked.

By the way, I hope people can see how this topic is tangentially related to Laser Discs.

So if you have a Bilingual Laser Disc, copy that Laser Disc to DVD-R, and can’t get that foreign voice out, turn off surround sound headphone decoding, THEN shift the TV balance to the English Side.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 17:51 
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No, you did it wrong.

I was waiting and wondering when you were going to post this.

When you copied the LD you DID NOT change the channels on your LD player.
When playing your LD through your LD player it will automatically give you one or the other channel, but if you copy you need to select the correct audio before.
I know this first hand as I had made a copy for a friend who wanted to see it with their father as he enjoyed it as a kid.

No magic, you just didn't copy it right and didn't select the correct English channel when transferring it.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 18:30 
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Yeah, since DVD players rarely have the option to isolate channels I would have made the DVD English-only.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 20:57 
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Yes. I know that now. Get one of those RCA 1-to-2 splitters, and plug the right output both the left and right inputs. We actually made a second English Only copy doing that when we had the LD.

But someone threw out the English Only copy thinking it was the bi-lingual copy. But my Uncle lives in another state. So it’s a little too late to work off the LD copy.

So, Yeah, I guess I could do that with my current DVD copy instead of the original LD copy, and burn a second DVD-R. What do blanks cost now, like 10-15 cents if you buy a hundred at a time? Just got to use an old-fashioned DVD Player with separate L and R holes, which I got.

Before the Xbox One I just threw the balance all the way to the right, and on a non-surround-headphone outputting system like most DVDs and the PS3, that’s all you need to do. And also with these Digital TVs there is no guessing whether you’re centered or not. It’s easy to tell when you’re centered. Even my CRT Sony Wega had a balance slider that was easy to center.

I just reported the weird quirk that only a surround headphone guy would find.

Maybe it’s a good thing the wrong copy was thrown out. I still have a true-to-original Japanese LD copy on DVD. :P

At least I got the easier of the 2 tasks. It’s a lot easier to take out an existing Japanese track than to add it back in with the LD in another State.

And if you made your Song of the South copy undoctored, you’re playing it on an Xbox One, 1) you can’t use it with you headphones unless you physically doctor the path to your headphones wth a special adapter tat’s not a common part, and 2) you can listen communally, but to do that, turn off the surround effects.
So it might be handy to have an "English-doctored" copy as well as the original, so I can listen to THAT in headphones, and avoid the frustration. 15 cents and a 2 hours watch-through is a lot less cost than a custom made specialty adapter for one DVD.

Besides I can see how 2-track synched mono sounds in headphone mode.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 21:36 
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By the way, which technique did you guys use?

I assume splitting the right out into 2 synched channels in would be better for non headphone-surround machines, giving you mono in both sides, and that’s the technique that should be used for most cases.

But I don’t know how my Dolby Atmos Headphone App would regard synched identical tracks. Would it try to "surroundize" the mono track, which might only cause echo?

I don’t know if I can make a mono recording on my DVD that can be recognized on the "info page" as mono, and hopefully my Atmos Headphone app would know not to touch it.

I guess I should try a movie in my Xbox One that I transferred that was made on a Beta before Beta Hi Fi Stereo was a thing, but the VCR had 2 output tracks on the back going L in->L out and R in->R out. That way I can see if "synched stereo" track is read as a stereo track or a mono track.

Be back in 20.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 22:27 
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tripletopper wrote:
Be back in 20.



I'm back.

The first time I tested a mono beta copy, I forgot to turn the balance on my TV back to centered, so my first test is inaccurate.


The second time, I looked up the disc information, and I know this beta tape was made before Beta Hi Fi Stereo and it said it was in "Dolby Digital", which I assume if there is no toslink input on my DVD recorder, which there isn’t, then the disc is encoded in Dolby Digital 4.0 via encoded RCA L/R

i tried it in both headphone surround mode on and off. And it sounded the same on the TV speakers.

This means two things:

1) The Dolby Atmos Headphone app on the Xbox One is smart enough to understand if there is a synched L and R, and no information in the encoded other channels, it just passes it through as 2 channel mono.

2) That means my entire mono collection doesn’t have to be jimmied just to work on the Xbox One. The ONLY Disc in my collection that does is Song of the South. And I can do a straight R Out to L+R synched In, and just like my mono Beta movie it will encode in Dolby Digital 4.0 where L=R and the center and surround equal zero sound.

I think 15 cents is worth the convenience of not having to adjust neither the surround setting on the Xbox One nor the balance on the TV.

Plus I’ll see how well a second generation LD-> DVD-> DVD transfer goes. I’ll see firsthand if Digital movies truly have no generational loss.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 23:06 
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This isn't a bloody live chat!
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 23:54 
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You set the LD player to output the same thing from both sides. You don’t even need a splitter. Every LD player made has this feature but with most decks you need a proper remote. You plug identical L and R into your DVD recorder or whatever.

As you said, you no longer have access to the disc but in the future you may need this with another LD. Some separate left to right, some later ones will have one language on the digital and the other on the analog.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 16 Feb 2019, 23:56 
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signofzeta wrote:
You set the LD player to output the same thing from both sides. You don’t even need a splitter. Every LD player made has this feature but with most decks you need a proper remote. You plug identical L and R into your DVD recorder or whatever.

As you said, you no longer have access to the disc but in the future you may need this with another LD. Some separate left to right, some later ones will have one language on the digital and the other on the analog.

Pretty much how I did it.
Select the correct channel you want and MAGIC its done.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 02:55 
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More adventures:

When I tried to transfer the DVD playback from the right track to the DVD recorder, I was STILL getting ghost Japanese.

Then I tired to look for a computerized solution, assuming it was in Dolby digital like the disc said. I tried one soluiton, ut one side decided to take 2 hours just to tansfer to a iMovie friendly format. About 40 minutes in I waned to abourt becuase I wasn’t sure if you could isolate the right speaker in iMovie. There was a mono option. but I asume is mono blended, whihc s NOT what I want.

Then I read something about the nature of Dolby Stereo, how it uses 2 soundtracks to get 4 sound direciots, because the center is a mix of the 2 and the surround is a mix of the 2 but thrown out of phase.

And lo and behold I saw something called an Active Matrix decoder. t showed 4 separate wires going to 4 different speakers. That’s when it hit me. I checked my Sony SDP. (I forget the rest of the model number, but I remember the typo someone made of "SPD" and came up with the Power Rangers joke.) Apparently it has 6 RCA output holes, one of each of the 6 speakers in the 5.1 setup.

So I tried something, I wired the toslink into the SDP, and then wired the right speaker to a RCA Y splitter, and then hooked up the output to the DVD recorder. I played the first five minutes, and lo and behold, the ghost Japanese stopped, and the TV balance was centered. Even on the Xbox One in surround headphone mode, I heard both speakers having the exact same thing: no ghost Japanese.

So I popped in a DVD-R blank and fired the DVD-R away. At most it will take 2 hours after adding time to finalize the disc. It sure beats asking my Uncle again and borrowing the disc for quite a few months.

By the way, I didn’t have the original remote for the Laser Disc player, and still don’t. So if you don’t have the remote, find a 2 RCA female and 1 RCA male Y connector.

I’ll let you know if the picture is comparable.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 04:24 
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No, if you don't have the remote buy one for a few bucks and then select 1L 2R and correct the issue before you transfer.
But since it seems that you are the only one watching and others in the house don't seem to use headphones or care you are OK just tweeking
your setup to yourself.

At least you know now how to fix this issue before you transfer a film next time.
Enjoy the film.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 21:32 
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I would have loved to keep the Japanese dub track on my Song of the South DVD dub but the big issue was the lack of an “audio monitor” option on all DVD player brands that won’t let one isolate for LL or RR for the left and right outputs.

I guess DVD’s implementation of multiple language tracks might have been the reason for it.
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 Post subject: Re: Audio Bug only I, the headphone guy, would find.
PostPosted: 17 Feb 2019, 22:06 
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rein-o wrote:
No, if you don't have the remote buy one for a few bucks and then select 1L 2R and correct the issue before you transfer.
But since it seems that you are the only one watching and others in the house don't seem to use headphones or care you are OK just tweeking
your setup to yourself.

At least you know now how to fix this issue before you transfer a film next time.
Enjoy the film.


Rein-o, that assumes I’m watching the factory pressed Laser Disc. Didn’t you read my uncle has that LD and I made 2 DVD copies originally.

Most DVD players don’t have L/R channel isolators. They have multiple Stereo and 5.1 audio tracks in different languages embedded, so the synched mono is not used. So when a DVD records in Dobly Pro Logic, the center track may be stored instead of implied in the coding of Dolby Pro Logic vs Stereo.

As for buying a remote... Do you know how hard it is to find a universal remote that would accept L/R/Stereo and D/A buttons as part of their programming without doing an original remote scan? I bought my Universal remote before DVD+/-Rs were considered a separate mode. I didn’t know whether to classify them as VCRs or DVDs. Plus original remotes are expensive on Ebay. And the manufacturers don’t sell them anymore once their stock runs out.

The problem with the DVD-R pressing is that if somewhere within your chain, it understands it as Dolby Digital, and something decides to read the left and right and center tracks, shifting the balance to the right has a GHOST Japanese, because even though it’s silent on an LPCM Analog connection, a Dolby encoded connection would pull the left track, because the center channel may be separartely defined on DVD instead of being implied by balancing and lowering left and right, So It may have recorded a Eng/Jpn mix on the center, you here a little of the center mix in the right.

But if you isolate the AC3 into 6 outputs,(yes, my Sony SDP-E800 has 6 RCA outputs), I just run the front right into a dual mono on the DVD-R

Now I don’t have to get my uncle upset by asking for it again.

As for generational loss, there is no noticeable amount in one generation. in picture, going from LD->DVD original-> DVD all english.

I did successfully make an All english Copy off the original Laser disc before by using a 1 RCA M/2 RCA F connector. If you have LOTS of dual-language LDs, it might make sense to invest in an original remote because you’re going to use it on a lot of titles, but for only 1 title, using a paasive RCA splitter I already have for connecting an NES to a stereo TV makes more sense than buying a remote (which was expensive then), waiting for it to come in the mail, and selecting the right option.
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